Taking orders from a higher but MUCH younger grade.

[brokenswordx]

I stand by what I typed.

[tallgeese]

As do I. With all due respect, I don't think that a junior student has the life experiances to teach adults what they need to know in context with the situations adults might face.

Nothing to do with ego, just a practical statement. again, if it's a matter of grooming the kid to work on instructional skills then it's just fine to use them in limited functions. But not in relation to skill building.

[joesteph]

I think that, as the OP became clearer, the discussion developed into different personal philosophies being stated. But let's look at the meaning we of the word "instruct" as we've used it--and I suggest we've used it loosely.

If a dan member, whether teen or adult, is leading warmups, it may be considered "instruction" only in a loose sense, in that it starts off the class, and is part of the instruction of the night, but it remains an activity often given to newer dan members to introduce them to the front of the "classroom."

My chief instructor presents new, required lessons herself. But a teenage dan member who assists her follows up by working directly with us, both teens and adults, in practicing the content of the technique that has been introduced. It's supplementary instruction to me, "instruction" again in a loose sense.

The chief instructor cannot be everywhere, and we students do not always need her standing right beside us as we practice techniques, but the dan member assisting her--no matter if not yet an adult--oversees what we lower belts are practicing together, troubleshooting if need be, fine-tuning here-and-there, answering questions if they come up. Still, the term instruction used loosely.

The lesson plans of the chief instructor may call for more complex activities, such as calling out a combination of moves to be performed together, with the students forming a row or two rows and awaiting the commands. The dan member, teen or adult, may be assigned--for whatever reason--to call out proper combinations of his own choosing, and these must be appropriate to the belt levels (so a certain combination to green belts, slightly different for orange belts, more basic for white belts). Non-required sparring combinations, training for proficiency on the part of the students, are supervised by the young dan member. Is this where the line is drawn as instruction, or is this a gray area that these are drills, not "truly" instruction?

The actual introduction of new lessons, new materials, is always done by the chief instructor in my dojang. She considers this to be her responsibility as our teacher. This is, to me, clearly instruction.

Much of what we've discussed has been the teenager "in charge of" adults, but we seem to have different views as to what instruction really is, and I believe even what in charge of really means.

[DWx]

However I don't really get this at all. Why can't adults respect children and receive instruction from them? Just because they're children? IMO all of these reasons for not having a child instruct you is more to do with aduts not wanting to because they feel they should be the ones in control. Personally, if people were doubting the quality of my instruction just because I was too young, then that is their loss. I'd rather not have them in my lessons if they weren't going to see any value in my teachings just because I were younger. Waste of my time and a waste of theirs just because they don't want to be under the guidence of a minor.

I'm not saying that this is right, but it is the way that it tends to be. Adults usually are the ones in charge, the ones looked to when kids need help, advise, etc. So, I'm not sure if it is ego that is to blame, or the fact that the status quo is being messed with that would bother most adults.

I think that something that might be part of it might have to do with general life experiences...adults get more of this than kids do, and the concept of "what can a kid teach me" might tend to come into play.

I realize that teaching the concept of humility is a staple of many MAs out there, but I'm not sure that subjugating an adult to the care of a child in class is the right way to go about it. An adult may view it as not teaching humility, but as outright humiliation, which I think, are two different things. I don't think that I would want a child to be my regular MA instructor. I know that this wasn't the orginal scope of the thread, but it has leaned in this direction. I don't have a problem with children getting work at some teaching and leading skills, but some controls being in place, and not going overboard with it, are the keys to success in this scenario.

I suppose it is a culture shock thing. We have some students that are actually teachers at the local high school and college. Bit of a shock for them when they first started training and a 12 year old approaches them with some advice for a technique. However maybe its just the environment we train in as I've never seen this be a problem. Personally I feel that if a person knows what they are doing and can instruct others on it, then I am more than willing to receive instruction, regardless of their age. I'm not just going to disregard what they know because they are younger than myself.

[joesteph]

I suppose it is a culture shock thing. We have some students that are actually teachers at the local high school and college. Bit of a shock for them when they first started training and a 12 year old approaches them with some advice for a technique.

I loved this part of your posting, DWx!

I've been a social studies teacher at one of my hometown's high schools for thirty-four years now. I'm teaching the daughters and nieces of former students. I've been and have been known as "Mr. ___" to perhaps thousands (present students, their parents, alumnae). I'll be fifty-seven in under two weeks, making even the chief instructor young enough to be my daughter.

Children, teens, and fellow adults in the dojang call me Joe. I address dan members on the dojang floor as Master, Ma'am, Mr., and Sir without a problem. I've been led in warmups and helped with hyungs by grade schoolers, and practiced joint locks and sparring combinations with teenagers. I've sometimes found it easier to work with those who are not legal adults (or have just turned eighteen) than those who are, especially with joint locks.

I still feel there will be no consensus in the forums on this issue. The very title of this topic begins with "Taking Orders," and though Shotokan-Fez explained what he meant by it, it's been interpreted as "the child in charge" and different references to "instruction," the latter which I addressed in a posting "two up" in this thread.

As I see it, it's mainly in the outlook of the adult.

[Tiger1962]

As do I. With all due respect, I don't think that a junior student has the life experiances to teach adults what they need to know in context with the situations adults might face.

Nothing to do with ego, just a practical statement. again, if it's a matter of grooming the kid to work on instructional skills then it's just fine to use them in limited functions. But not in relation to skill building.

I agree with your statement 100% Tallgeese and I reiterate - speaking for MYSELF, I know MY EGO has nothing to do with my opinion on this topic.

[bushido_man96]

Bit of a shock for them when they first started training and a 12 year old approaches them with some advice for a technique....Personally I feel that if a person knows what they are doing and can instruct others on it, then I am more than willing to receive instruction, regardless of their age. I'm not just going to disregard what they know because they are younger than myself.

I see what you are saying here, and in a situation like this, when one approaches another with individual help, I don't see the problem with it, either. But, at the same time, I'm under the impression that this is isn't in relation to an entire class, or a section of the class. More like a "I have done it this way, and it works for me; you might give it a try..." approach. Much different from being put in the charge of a child, teaching you a skill for a class.