Taking orders from a higher but MUCH younger grade.

[bushido_man96]

As a black belt who recently started training in a similar style to the one I earned my BB in, I have taken instruction from everyone ranging from a 10 year old green belt to a 60 year old 6th degree. Sometimes it was because the instructor put me with them to learn something. Sometimes it was because I sought them out for assistance. It all depends on what you are learning or needing assistance on. I would ask the lower ranked younger students for help with remembering a form. For help with details of self defense techniques, I go to the higher ranked adult black belts. Though if I am just learning the basic flow of the self defense, and am not yet to the point where I am developing the finer points, I will go to younger/lower ranked students if they are who is available.

I think you really can learn from any age/rank martial artist. That doesn't mean that they can teach you everything, but they can all teach you something.

I think the major difference here is in seeking out help, and being placed under the charge of one who is younger; two very different scenarios. Many adults would not like to be placed under the charge of a child against their choice/will/judgement. Especially after they have perhaps spent their time at home instructing their children on what to do, when to do it, and how to do it.

[bushido_man96]

I actually do not have a problem taking orders from some one who is younger than me and holds a higher rank since my sensei is 23 and I'm 34.

I think that this changes the scenario a bit; you are both adults in this case. When one is not an adult, that is when there is a difference in opinions.

[granitemiller]

For a 13 year old or younger, they just don't have the emotional maturity to teach adults. White Owl's previous comment about a young student (u-13) who just received her BB, makes a comment to White Owl that was totally inappropriate. Now, is the young person flexing their wings? Absolutely. But this is one prime example why a young BB should not be given authority over adult students, regardless of rank.

[DWx]

Adults are not interested in taking direction from Children

I think the major difference here is in seeking out help, and being placed under the charge of one who is younger; two very different scenarios. Many adults would not like to be placed under the charge of a child against their choice/will/judgement. Especially after they have perhaps spent their time at home instructing their children on what to do, when to do it, and how to do it.

Just an FYI, I am incredibly biased on this subject, mainly because I was a kid blackbelt, as is my sister now, and I did instruct in lessons. However I don't really get this at all. Why can't adults respect children and receive instruction from them? Just because they're children? IMO all of these reasons for not having a child instruct you is more to do with aduts not wanting to because they feel they should be the ones in control. Personally, if people were doubting the quality of my instruction just because I was too young, then that is their loss. I'd rather not have them in my lessons if they weren't going to see any value in my teachings just because I were younger. Waste of my time and a waste of theirs just because they don't want to be under the guidence of a minor.

As for all the reasons like maturity and never experienced a fight, like joesteeph said, a lot of adults have never experienced a real fight either, I certainly haven't. I don't think it makes you any less qualified to give instruction on a technique and possible application.

With regards to maturity, fair enough if the child isn't mature, then yes they shouldn't teach, however if they are mature then IMO they deserve respect. That's something that needs to be assesed on an individual basis. Adults can be pretty immature too at times. Power trips are also on an individual basis, if the kid is like that then they shouldn't teach in the first place and shouldn't be allowed to teach again until they can control themselves. Seen plenty of adults get carried away on a power trip too.

[granitemiller]

Your points are well made. But there are some things to consider.

The age of the young BB - from age 14 and up, you can have students of extraordinary emotional maturity and leadership skills. And yes, if there is someone like this you should use their talents here and there. But this is more the exception rather than the norm.

Keep in mind that an adult who is paying to come to class wants value for their dollars spent. If the instructor once in a while allows one of the younger black belts to teach, and has given them clear instruction for the lesson, then this could be a good thing for everyone involved (humility for the adults, leadership skills for the youth, the instructor can review the youth's teaching). However, when it becomes the norm, and the youth are not prepared, then the adult will become disgruntled.

My feeling is that kids can teach other kids sparingly (once again, an adult who is paying for their child's martial arts eduction may not appreciate the instructor always having the junior BBs teach), and the junior BB can lead an adult class in warm-ups, or be used to demonstrate a technique.

[brokenswordx]

I think the real porblem is the ego of the adult being taught by a child.

[joesteph]

I think the real porblem is the ego of the adult being taught by a child.

Just tonight, the Jo Kyo Nim (assistant instructor) who's either fifteen or almost there was leading two green belts and orange belt me in different fitness exercises, then following the lesson plan of the chief instructor with the green belts practicing certain sparring moves, and working directly with me, introducing me to what were simpler but still two new sparring combos. These aren't required ones, but there are a number of sparring combinations that our chief instructor can tap into, and she put her faith in this young man to instruct us while she was working with three white belts--two adults, one twelve-year-old.

I had no problem with his instruction at all, and he kept an eye on the green belts to see if they were working smoothly. He even offered to stay after class for a few minutes if I were free, to go over the second of the two new combos, because there was more challenge to it than the first. Of course, I took him up on the offer.

It may be ego, as brokenswordx suggests, or it may be just the individual adult's "seeing" or "not seeing" the younger student in the position of dan responsibility.

[bushido_man96]

However I don't really get this at all. Why can't adults respect children and receive instruction from them? Just because they're children? IMO all of these reasons for not having a child instruct you is more to do with aduts not wanting to because they feel they should be the ones in control. Personally, if people were doubting the quality of my instruction just because I was too young, then that is their loss. I'd rather not have them in my lessons if they weren't going to see any value in my teachings just because I were younger. Waste of my time and a waste of theirs just because they don't want to be under the guidence of a minor.

I'm not saying that this is right, but it is the way that it tends to be. Adults usually are the ones in charge, the ones looked to when kids need help, advise, etc. So, I'm not sure if it is ego that is to blame, or the fact that the status quo is being messed with that would bother most adults.

I think that something that might be part of it might have to do with general life experiences...adults get more of this than kids do, and the concept of "what can a kid teach me" might tend to come into play.

I realize that teaching the concept of humility is a staple of many MAs out there, but I'm not sure that subjugating an adult to the care of a child in class is the right way to go about it. An adult may view it as not teaching humility, but as outright humiliation, which I think, are two different things. I don't think that I would want a child to be my regular MA instructor. I know that this wasn't the orginal scope of the thread, but it has leaned in this direction. I don't have a problem with children getting work at some teaching and leading skills, but some controls being in place, and not going overboard with it, are the keys to success in this scenario.

[granitemiller]

I don't agree that "ego" is the general problem. Of course, it could be a problem with some adults, but overall I don't think it is simply a matter of ego.

[Tiger1962]

Everyone is going to have a different opinion of this situation & this can go on and on debating both sides.

I tend to believe that when it DOES bother adults, it has nothing at all to do with ego, but rather, the adults not wanting their time, money and energy wasted by the youth who is goofing off or not experienced enough.

I also think that it's "a given" that there are exceptions to EVERYTHING.