Taking orders from a higher but MUCH younger grade.

[Traymond]

it teached you humility and respect. And it will humble you as well. I would listen to him just as I would listen to a 45 year old nidan.

[MMA_Jim]

I'd have a tough time taking sd instruction from him. A 13 yo kid just dosn't have the life experiance and probilby not the adult triaining required to adaquately present that kind of material.

It's that kind of situation that keeps us from awarding bb rank in the combatives of our art until at least 16. Even with that, I think the youngest to ever reach bb status was 19 or so.

This 13 yo kid may not have the life experience, but, this 13 yo kid does have the technical capibilities per this kids Sensei.

A 13yr old isnt even close to reaching physical let alone mental maturity. They simply having had enough experience to fully understand what it is they're doing- they're not old enough.

Regardless of the potential this kid may have, part of being an instructor is to know what you're doing, why you're doing it, how you're doing it, and what can happen in the course of your technique. Maybe this kid can teach a half hearted technique, but all it does is give that particular student poor instruction and leads to the development of bad habits.

[NightOwl]

I agree that allowing the younger ones to run "warm ups" or demonstrating techniques is a good way for them to learn leadership and another skills.

I don't think that they need to be a higher rank either for this (perhaps for drills). It is a good experience for them to get used to a leading role.

[Traymond]

I have met kids that are 15 and under who taught classes better than adults who are 30 and up, who are we to decide whether or not the person is capable of teaching because of his age. We learn from others and we teach, thats because we do not just teach the art, we share the art so that we can better understand it with each other. If its an ego that got hurt, that you can over come that, but if its just that you dont like his teaching method or who he is with what rank he has, than the problem has to do with you respecting your sensei's actions, if he chose to honor his nidan student by allowing him to teach the class, you should honor his wishes as well.

[NightOwl]

A kid can know all the forms and the bunkai down pat. However he can't provide the psychical feedback needed for an adult (perhaps not the same maturity level as well). That isn't to say that being young is bad- it isn't. Kids can be way cooler than adults sometimes. But having worked with kids before (and having been one for a large portion of my life), I can tell you that on the whole they are not on the same maturity level as adults. There is a reason that child psychology is a specialization as opposed to regular psychology.

Especially when it comes to fighting- it makes a big difference. I can probably match any 18 year old with no training at all and a 10 year old black belt champ and have the 18 year old win every time. This isn't because he has more technical know how- but because the 10 year old is just too small to be able to do anything yet. If that 18 year old wanted to train, it wouldn't be fair to him as he wouldn't get to train as he would against someone who would actually attack him. Now, kids NEED to know what is like to fight back against an adult, however adults should never have to fight against a kid. Thus you need some interaction between adult and kid training, however to have the kid lead everything for the adults doesn't make sense. That is why kids and adult classes really should be separate.

As for kids needing to know what it is like to fight back against an adult- they shouldn't be practicing regular attacks anyways. They need to learn how to escape, bite, call for help, learn to deal with strangers, etc. However training them against an adult with the usual curriculum is bad news.

As such having kids lead in things that both kids and adults can participate in (warmups, drills, etc) is a great idea. And for kids classes, the blackbelt students can lead fully to prepare them for when they graduate up.

[DWx]

I kinda agree with Traymond. Kids can take classes and provide all the technical knowledge if they are good enough. Doesn't mean they should be allowed to run every class but I wouldn't totally count them out as an instructor. IMO if they received the belt, then they should be good enough to know how each technique works and provide instruction on said technique if necessary. I wouldn't expect a kid to be your primary source of instruction but I definately wouldn't have a problem with them taking the odd lesson.

And I personally wouldn't say no to kids training in an adult environment. I did. Obviously in most cases its more conducive to train children in an environment that is befitting of them but that doesn't mean they can't be mature enough to attend an adults class. Size isn't really that much of a problem either. If we're talking about around 10 - 13 year olds, some of them can be bigger than an adult female in any case.

[kws]

Adults are not interested in taking direction from Children. I enjoy training with younger students in the appropriate venue. That venue is not during an adult training session. Not many adults will comment out of respect for the instructor.

[joesteph]

Doesn't it all boil down to what the lesson is, what the lesson plans for the class really are?

The references to fighting may have nothing to do with what the lesson is, let alone what the lesson plans for that class may be. It could be calling out a series of moves to a row or two of students (teens and adults) that might be "low block, high block, reverse punch with a kiai/kihap." The individual calling out combinations such as these must be qualified to do so, meaning that a dan member of teenage years or greater can call out respectable, sensible combinations, and even aid those who get lost (like me, if it's in Korean, and I mix up "San Dan Mahk Kee, Yuk Soo Do Kong Kyuk" with "Ssang Soo Mahk Kee, Yuk Soo Do Kong Kyuk"; that is, "high block, ridge hand strike" with "double-arm block, ridge hand strike").

The dan member may be "assigning" one-step sparring combinations that are not required ones, as the lesson plan of the chief instructor has indicated, but know what s/he is doing, because s/he's been there, gone through these, and knows how/where to troubleshoot. It may have nothing to do with age in this case if it's a teenager or adult.

Are we speaking of introducing new material? I'll go with the chief instructor introducing the new, and the dan members--who could be teenagers or adults--available to help in subsequent lessons that repeatedly review this material. The chief instructor can't be everywhere at once, such as if the whole dojo/dojang is performing previously taught drills at the same time, or the chief instructor is working with one group of students, relying on a dan member--teenage years, adult years--to supervise other students performing other work that ought to be known by the lower belts, but there's always something to fine tune.

I have read postings expressing concern regarding actual fighting ability, maturity, and a "power trip":

- I am not in a position, based on personal experience, to comment on actual fighting ability; I'm too limited there.

- In terms of maturity, don't count teenagers out; if anything, teens may take it to heart and simply need the cooperation of students of all ages, even if it's for warm-ups. If the teen is not being mature, the chief instructor can catch it now and settle that matter, even assigning the teen dan member to do the task again, at another time, with the teen knowing s/he is being monitored.

- I wonder if the "power trip" matter is something that can occur with teenager or adult, and that it should be reported to the chief instructor no matter what the age of the dan member exhibiting it. It's self-evident that it's unacceptable.

I'm not so certain this matter can be resolved to a consensus of the forum's adults. I believe that, in the end, it doesn't boil down to the individual teen dan member, but to the individual adult's reaction to teen dan members.

Edited December 18, 2008 by joesteph

[Rateh]

As a black belt who recently started training in a similar style to the one I earned my BB in, I have taken instruction from everyone ranging from a 10 year old green belt to a 60 year old 6th degree. Sometimes it was because the instructor put me with them to learn something. Sometimes it was because I sought them out for assistance. It all depends on what you are learning or needing assistance on. I would ask the lower ranked younger students for help with remembering a form. For help with details of self defense techniques, I go to the higher ranked adult black belts. Though if I am just learning the basic flow of the self defense, and am not yet to the point where I am developing the finer points, I will go to younger/lower ranked students if they are who is available.

I think you really can learn from any age/rank martial artist. That doesn't mean that they can teach you everything, but they can all teach you something.

[brokenswordx]

I think you really can learn from any age/rank martial artist. That doesn't mean that they can teach you everything, but they can all teach you something.

QFT