Juniors with high grades

[Throwdown0850]

As stated by others, skill at teaching doesn't come from age, but experience counts for a heck of a lot more (in both teaching methods, and life), and just how much experience does a 16yr old have? (very little). If they're teaching other youths, fine (accompanied by adult supervision) I would have no problem with that. It can be bad enough with adults who get a “god” complex when becoming a MA instructor, with a teen, the potential is much higher (hence, the “supervision”) The liability factor alone should limit any “store front” school from allowing an “unsupervised' youth from being a “solo” instructor. The youth may be very skilled (physically) and may be able to do many a physical feat with ease. This may aid them in teaching other youths, but as far as teaching “adults” (whom often need individual physical assistance/guidance which a “youth” cannot relate to or understand) I see NO advantage or point.

I cannot agree more.. In my opinion, a Youth instructor around 16 would not be able to teach the "mind set" of fighting and mentally prepare for a fight.. cause the lack of experience.. the main reason why we go to class is to learn self-Defense.. for example: life threating situations...

[Shotokan-kez]

At present we have a 10 year old black belt, she is allowed to take her second dan when she is 12. But for her third dan she must be 21. I don't have a problem with this to be honest. But alas i would feel a little put out if she taught the class, i don't think i would like that very much because she isn't very mature.

[Roys15]

Being about the age of the guy in the article, you might not like what I have to say, but consider this: you more knowledgeable and responsible adults allow us to babysit your children, cook your food at fast food joints, and drive cars up and down your "safest" streets, but you have a problem with us getting high up in a respectable organization, and teaching in that same organization? I suppose you'd rather have us hangin' out on street corners sellin' drugs and ruffin' folks up.

You don't want us doing these things do you? so I have a serious problem with yall attacking this fellow for actually doing something good in an increasingly evil world.

That being said, my sensei, Rayburn Nichols, always says that in our style there is no such thing as a "kid" or "junior" Black belt, and he has never discouraged me (or any of my peers, that I know of) from advancing in rank just because of our age. I've also never been turned down by an "older" lower rank when I offer to teach them something. I just passed my nidan testing because a 9 year old decided to help me. I am not embarrassed to say I learned something from "a mere child" in fact, I'm proud someone of his rank could find it in himself to help me.

On a different note, just because a 16 year old hasn't seen 32 years of life doesn't mean that he's never been in a fight, or that he's never been in a life threatening situation.

Also, if you're dumbing your style down for kids, you're not really teaching real karate, and if you're not teaching real karate, you're giving all of us a bad name, and ruining the sport for the whole world.

With the above being said, I leave you with the following scenario:

Perhaps every one over 3rd dan died tomorrow, with the exception of the guy in the aforementioned article, would you quit training just because he wasn't "officially an adult"?

[bushido_man96]

I think a person (if they're under 18 ) should go through an "intern" period if award a black belt, they can teach and all that jazz, but when they reach 18 they should test again then be given the 1st dan rank.

Why would you want them to have to test again? If they have already completed the test once, and met the requirements, then why do it again? Just because they have gotten older?

[fleasome]

I think it should be a case by case basis. We all know what a Savant is. I've been a musician for over 30 years and every few I see some young kid that can play drums, piano, violin, etc with skill I will never attain. We don't teach anyone under 17 at our dojo, but I have seen 'Junior Blackbelts" at Association functions. Never really trained with them though. That whole clique thing ya know.

At any rate, I would never rule out the possibility that someone 1/2 or a 1/3 my age could teach me something.

You learn by teaching, you learn by watching, you learn by doing. I remember once I was in the basement dojo playing with someone's 6 year old boy. He wasn't in the martial arts or anything yet, but we were just messing around playing tug-o-war with one of my bo's. I learned something technique wise with a bo that I'll never forget clearly by accident.

But I digress.....

Case by case is my answer. If a 16 year old was teaching me something, I'd be open to the experience until I had reason not to. Perhaps my main instructor would be testing my temper and patience.

Lee

[Throwdown0850]

Being about the age of the guy in the article, you might not like what I have to say, but consider this: you more knowledgeable and responsible adults allow us to babysit your children, cook your food at fast food joints, and drive cars up and down your "safest" streets, but you have a problem with us getting high up in a respectable organization, and teaching in that same organization? I suppose you'd rather have us hangin' out on street corners sellin' drugs and ruffin' folks up.

You don't want us doing these things do you? so I have a serious problem with yall attacking this fellow for actually doing something good in an increasingly evil world.

That being said, my sensei, Rayburn Nichols, always says that in our style there is no such thing as a "kid" or "junior" Black belt, and he has never discouraged me (or any of my peers, that I know of) from advancing in rank just because of our age. I've also never been turned down by an "older" lower rank when I offer to teach them something. I just passed my nidan testing because a 9 year old decided to help me. I am not embarrassed to say I learned something from "a mere child" in fact, I'm proud someone of his rank could find it in himself to help me.

On a different note, just because a 16 year old hasn't seen 32 years of life doesn't mean that he's never been in a fight, or that he's never been in a life threatening situation.

Also, if you're dumbing your style down for kids, you're not really teaching real karate, and if you're not teaching real karate, you're giving all of us a bad name, and ruining the sport for the whole world.

With the above being said, I leave you with the following scenario:

Perhaps every one over 3rd dan died tomorrow, with the exception of the guy in the aforementioned article, would you quit training just because he wasn't "officially an adult"?

I agree BUT, the "mere child" was helping you with your stuff just to pass your test, not self defense... cause in my opinion, today, thats all people worry about is if they get there "stuff" down just to pass the test, I am not talking about you of course, I was speaking in generalities.. I was talking about SELF DEFENSE.. I believe a kid cannot give us the best training for a possible life threatening situation... cause in my opinion, any kid can help you with a kata or a punch or a kick, NOT self defense....

and the "child" may have some experience, but not enough to trust my life on it...

[brokenswordx]

I think a person (if they're under 18 ) should go through an "intern" period if award a black belt, they can teach and all that jazz, but when they reach 18 they should test again then be given the 1st dan rank.

Why would you want them to have to test again? If they have already completed the test once, and met the requirements, then why do it again? Just because they have gotten older?

B/C in their intern phase they're a pseudo black belt.

Edited June 28, 2008 by brokenswordx

[Roys15]

Once again, age doesn't necessarily mean experience. I know senior citizens who have never been in a real life threatening altercation, and I also have an 11 year old buddy who has had 4 grown men attack him at once.

Here's something else you might want to consider in a case such as the aforementioned. In my school there are many different instructors, so if you were to get involved, you could always turn to one of the higher-ups for extra experience. Each and every instructor has their own innate and individual specialties, which altogether make a great organization.

Just because one has never had to use a certain technique in a real life and death situation, does that mean that they won't know how to use said technique? I'm sure all of us have learned techniques from our senseis that they have never had to use. does that make our senseis inexperienced frauds? Hmm...

**I don't know about your styles, but in ours alot of the katas and drills we do are composed of self defense moves**

If your not dumbing your style down for juniors, and your juniors had to jump through all the same hoops that your adults did to get the same rank, shouldn't they have the same training and abilities?

[tallgeese]

I don't think it's dumbing down, it's teaching age appropriate material.

There are movements we use that 8 year olds don't need to work on. They're just not emotionally mature enough to be repping an eye gouge yet. Hence, the junior ranks.

From a weapons stand ponit, I can't show kids knife work. Not in good concious. The black belts in my sysem have to demostrate basic firearm knowledge, even if they never plan on persuing it further, can I teach that to a pre-teen?

I would also argue that practice of defensive manuvres in kata is a world diffrent that training them at speed with mindset, which is a natural and needed extension of training. I think that this is part of throwdown's point. You just can teach that kind of thing to children. I'm not saying that you should't teach them good movements, I'm just saying that you can hold off on the ugly realities of fighting for a bit with them. It's probibly healither for them in the long run.

[Roys15]

Touche, I agree, it might not be best to teach unruly eight year olds eye gouges that they may use on others on the playground...

As for knife and gun work, everyone in my family has been taught how to handle knives and guns from what the rest of the world might consider a young age, and neither my sister or I have ever used either on each other or anyone else. I understand not teaching tactical weaponry to children, that's somewhat logical.

I see no problem with teaching kids to defend against these weapons though...

It's good to learn how to fight at a young age, but you don't have to scare the snot out of folks when you do it, thats not a requirement in the instructor handbook =-)

yeah, hold off on the neck breaks, and choke holds with young children, but I'm sure today's teenagers have never seen anything like a broken neck in any movies.. I don't see how any of this applies to teaching and allowing a responsible teenager to teach these things.

I've learned many lethal techniques in karate, but with the discipline I've gained through karate, I've never been tempted to use these moves.

I guess it all comes down to the responsibility issue. Some folks can be trusted, and some can't. Be smart, use good judgement.