Kata, after Kata, after Kata

[Zanshin]

^^ So the kihon that you practise are for improving your kata? Why not practise the kata again and again?

There are huge problems if you are not practising kihon in karate, I agree. But if the kihon you are practising is for kata, and for kata performance, then you are wasting 40 minutes of your class time as you are doubling up! Wouldn't you agree? A more sensible approach is to practise the kihon in kata by practising the kata!

Well no, I don't think so. There is a difference between practicing individual waza, as opposed to using the techniques within Kata.

Like most things physical, you have to programme you muscle memory in order to correctly perform the technique. The best way to do that is through focused ongoing repetition.

No different to golfers really. They will go down the driving range to continually practice and hone their swings, buts that in itself is not playing golf.

In Karate terms Kihon is our driving range practice.

[GOM]

Well no, I don't think so. There is a difference between practicing individual waza, as opposed to using the techniques within Kata.

It is a waste of time because you are about to practise the same techniques in the kata for another 40 minutes!

Like most things physical, you have to programme you muscle memory in order to correctly perform the technique. The best way to do that is through focused ongoing repetition.

Yes, but the muscle memory you are building is for modern kata. Wado is a modern system, the modern techniques are to (example) punch chudan with a straight arm and horizontal fist. Add to that the long and awkward stances that you would never (I hope) use in a SD situation. This is bad muscle memory.

No different to golfers really. They will go down the driving range to continually practice and hone their swings, buts that in itself is not playing golf.

The difference is golfers use those swings when playing golf. Karate-ka dont use kata kihon in anything by the performance of kata. We certailny don't use the kata kihon in kumite or SD.

In Karate terms Kihon is our driving range practice.

Kata kihon is the driving range for kata performance.

[Zanshin]

Well no, I don't think so. There is a difference between practicing individual waza, as opposed to using the techniques within Kata.

It is a waste of time because you are about to practise the same techniques in the kata for another 40 minutes!

Not if the Katas you train in do not contain any of the Kihon.

For example, yesterday at our dojo we trained for 30 mins doing Naihanchi and Seishan. Neither of those have Sokuto or Juntsuki in them.

Good job we practiced our Basics then!

Like most things physical, you have to programme you muscle memory in order to correctly perform the technique. The best way to do that is through focused ongoing repetition.

Yes, but the muscle memory you are building is for modern kata. Wado is a modern system, the modern techniques are to (example) punch chudan with a straight arm and horizontal fist. Add to that the long and awkward stances that you would never (I hope) use in a SD situation. This is bad muscle memory.

Well you refer to Wado as a modern system, it is of course only as modern as the other major styles, but its origins are rooted in the Koryu jujutsu arts, and as such it borrows a lot of its teaching methods from them.

Through the practice of Juntsuki, the student is not so much being given an appropriate way to punch in a fight, but more a piece of training apparatus to work on. Its practice not only strengthens the leg muscles but also teaches otherwise hidden aspects such training the body to move from the tanden (core centre), and thus correct weight distribution. Transition of movement and taisabaki is key in a fight.

The rotation of the fist you refer to, and the straightening (but not locking out) of the back leg is a timing aid when performed in this type of kihon.

This type of punch is not (and never has been) intended as a direct self defence application but more as a way to instil the core principles of punching. They follow a very traditional japanese way of "train hard and fight easy".

No different to golfers really. They will go down the driving range to continually practice and hone their swings, buts that in itself is not playing golf.

The difference is golfers use those swings when playing golf. Karate-ka dont use kata kihon in anything by the performance of kata. We certailny don't use the kata kihon in kumite or SD.

As I said in my previous post, Kata is the embodiment of movement. The student will take the Kihon ways to do techniques and then apply those to multidirectional movement.

But there is a lot more to kata than that, as they often have additional or underlying reasons to practice them. For example Chinto Kata is said to be practiced for balance, Seishan to teach us how to turn on and off dynamic tension, and Naihanchi in order to teach us to use small sharp movements with our hips.

Again, not so much a direct application for self defence but more a piece of training apparatus.

In Karate terms Kihon is our driving range practice.

Kata kihon is the driving range for kata performance.

Indeed it is, and that’s why it should be practiced and fine tuned.

Don’t get me wrong, Wado is a great karate system for self defence (arguably one of the best), but I think it’s important to understand that if you want to learn self defence, go to a dedicated self defence class. Wado karate is an art that you can study for a lifetime.

[GOM]

Not if the Katas you train in do not contain any of the Kihon.

For example, yesterday at our dojo we trained for 30 mins doing Naihanchi and Seishan. Neither of those have Sokuto or Juntsuki in them.

Good job we practiced our Basics then!

Did you practise just Sokuto and Juntsuki then? If not, then you are practising the same techniques in your kihon training as well as your kata. Doubling up.

Well you refer to Wado as a modern system, it is of course only as modern as the other major styles, but its origins are rooted in the Koryu jujutsu arts, and as such it borrows a lot of its teaching methods from them.

And what does that have to do with the karate techniques you are over practising? Wado (karate) is modern. So is Goju, Shoto and Shito. I didn't say it was bad, just reminding you you are practising modern karate techniques designed for children (Physical Education Program designed by Anko Itosu). What kind of teaching methods are you referring to here?

Through the practice of Juntsuki, the student is not so much being given an appropriate way to punch in a fight, but more a piece of training apparatus to work on. Its practice not only strengthens the leg muscles but also teaches otherwise hidden aspects such training the body to move from the tanden (core centre), and thus correct weight distribution. Transition of movement and taisabaki is key in a fight.

Are you referring here to the modern juntsuki with the fist being horizontal and the arm straight? This is only for show, to make kata look pretty. When punching an object, the fist should be vertical and the arm still bent. It is dangerous to hit an object the "kata" way

The rotation of the fist you refer to, and the straightening (but not locking out) of the back leg is a timing aid when performed in this type of kihon.

No sorry, they are modern ideas for a prettier looking kata.

This type of punch is not (and never has been) intended as a direct self defence application but more as a way to instil the core principles of punching. They follow a very traditional japanese way of "train hard and fight easy".

Which punch? The modern version? What are the core principles in punching in your opinion?

As I said in my previous post, Kata is the embodiment of movement. The student will take the Kihon ways to do techniques and then apply those to multidirectional movement.

Modern kihon in modern kata can teach principles, but the modern kihon is different to how you actually use the techniques in a real "fight" (hate that term fight, as SD is not fighting).

But there is a lot more to kata than that, as they often have additional or underlying reasons to practice them. For example Chinto Kata is said to be practiced for balance, Seishan to teach us how to turn on and off dynamic tension, and Naihanchi in order to teach us to use small sharp movements with our hips. Again, not so much a direct application for self defence but more a piece of training apparatus.

Can you please advise where in each of those kata those principles are being practised?

Kata kihon is the driving range for kata performance.

Indeed it is, and that’s why it should be practiced and fine tuned.

And I agree if you are practising modern kata for competitions and or fitness. But if you are looking for more than that, then you are practising redundant techniques.

Don’t get me wrong, Wado is a great karate system for self defence (arguably one of the best), but I think it’s important to understand that if you want to learn self defence, go to a dedicated self defence class. Wado karate is an art that you can study for a lifetime.

Why the need to go to a seperate SD class? Karate (touide/tote) was established for the average bloke as means for self-defense against untrained and unarmed attackers. If you are not practising, or teaching, SD in class, then you are merely dong exercise.

Modern kata have 3 aspects - For show, for practise, and for application. Having the key to unlock what each move means is essential.

[Zanshin]

Not if the Katas you train in do not contain any of the Kihon.

For example, yesterday at our dojo we trained for 30 mins doing Naihanchi and Seishan. Neither of those have Sokuto or Juntsuki in them.

Good job we practiced our Basics then!

Did you practise just Sokuto and Juntsuki then? If not, then you are practising the same techniques in your kihon training as well as your kata. Doubling up.

No, but on reflection I should have answered your earlier post differently.

I think I would agree with you (in principle) that the techniques that are performed in Kihon are fundamentally the same as those done in the pinan Katas, but the training of Katas like Seishan, Naihanchi and Chinto etc., do not find you practicing techniques in quite the same way. But I think you know that.

That said, I believe there is a place for practicing the pinan katas on top of Kihon if only to provide a method of honing the techniques in a variety of stances and directions, and to practice combining of techniques. From a Wado perspective the practice of the pinan katas is really only “junbi” or warm up for the senior Katas.

And of course, there is the fact that training in Katas can provide very limited practice of some techniques but an abundance of others (due to the frequency of use of techniques).

Well you refer to Wado as a modern system, it is of course only as modern as the other major styles, but its origins are rooted in the Koryu jujutsu arts, and as such it borrows a lot of its teaching methods from them.

And what does that have to do with the karate techniques you are over practising? Wado (karate) is modern. So is Goju, Shoto and Shito. I didn't say it was bad, just reminding you you are practising modern karate techniques designed for children (Physical Education Program designed by Anko Itosu). What kind of teaching methods are you referring to here?

An often overly simplified categorisation of Wado is that it is comes from Shotokan and there fore is a version of it, or at least borrows most of it methods. In fact, Otsuka was already a master jujutsu-ka before he hooked up with Funakoshi from whom he initially learned his karate techniques.

My point is I suppose, that Otsuka’s wado is more the integration of Karate techniques into his Jujutsu.

Although my experience with training in other styles is limited, in a nutshell, I think the key difference is the incorporation of extensive paired kata into Wado.

It has been said that the “canon” of Okinawan karate is how to unlock the techniques found within Kata and applying them to self defence scenarios. In the main this is done through the process of “Bunkai”.

Wado however does not really utilise the “Bunkai” approach (or at least, not in a directly comparable way to the Okinawan method). Most styles have pre arranged sparing, but in addition to these, Wado has numerous paired kata each with a specific training purpose that range form close quarters fighting to ground work and defence against a knife. All good Wado schools incorporate a number (if not most these kata) into their training syllabus.

They include but are mot limited to;

Kihon Kumite

Gumite Gata

Ohyo Kumite

Idori no kata (defence from kneeling position)

Tanto Dori (knife Defence)

Tachi Dori (defence against a sword).

In 1939 when Otsuka officially registered his style of “Wado Ryu Karate Jujutsu” with the Dai Nippon Butokukai, He listed dozens more, including specialised techniques for policemen and the likes of self defence for Women.

The “principles” of movement and technique that are developed through the practice of the solo katas (Seishan, Chinto Naihanchi etc) are incorporated into these paired kata, and I think what make Wado different to other styles.

Through the practice of Juntsuki, the student is not so much being given an appropriate way to punch in a fight, but more a piece of training apparatus to work on. Its practice not only strengthens the leg muscles but also teaches otherwise hidden aspects such training the body to move from the tanden (core centre), and thus correct weight distribution. Transition of movement and taisabaki is key in a fight.

Are you referring here to the modern juntsuki with the fist being horizontal and the arm straight? This is only for show, to make kata look pretty. When punching an object, the fist should be vertical and the arm still bent. It is dangerous to hit an object the "kata" way

I cant comment about other styles of Karate, but from a wado perspective the practice of “Jun-tsuki” in is definitely not just about “aesthetics”. For us it’s the training the body how to move as one. The movement occurs with the whole body. As such this technique as part of your Kihon practice does have purpose.

Its not the way that you would apply it in self defence, but it was never intended to be used in that way. It’s a way of learning how to use your body.

As a point of interest here, the wado Juntsuki differs quite a bit from the often wrongly compared to “oi tsuki”of Shotokan, as it is a lot higher in its stance and less angular. This makes it far more natural in my opinion and easier to move within.

The rotation of the fist you refer to, and the straightening (but not locking out) of the back leg is a timing aid when performed in this type of kihon.

No sorry, they are modern ideas for a prettier looking kata.

It does make the technique look better I agree with you, but again, I think it has purposes beyond aesthetics.

One argument is that by keeping the fingers of your fist facing upwards as you extend the arm, it is easier to avoid “winging” the punch. (ie elbows going out and thus weakening the structure of the punch).

Another is as I have said before, that it is a sort of physical timing prompt. The execution of good techniques should mean that the entire body starts and ends moving as one.

On a theoretical level, it’s also the study of “rotational” energy. The rotational bit being reference to the fist turning at the point of impact, but it shouldn’t really be taken as literally as that.

EG to release your wrist if it is being held, you could twist your arm, thus utilising rotational energy.

This type of punch is not (and never has been) intended as a direct self defence application but more as a way to instil the core principles of punching. They follow a very traditional japanese way of "train hard and fight easy".

Which punch? The modern version? What are the core principles in punching in your opinion?

Physics dictates that there are only certain ways to generate power in a technique, one being potential energy - dropping and the use of gravity, another being kinetic energy – the increase of velocity (ie using your body in the most efficient way possible) and another being rotational energy.

There are limited ways to generate power and if you rule out potential and rotational, (as they can be restricted), the best way is Kinetic.

Basically, kinetic energy can be achieved by. 1. The waving of the body, 2. The twisting of the body and 3. The shifting of the bodyweight.

In my experience Wado predominantly seeks to generate power from the second and third, as waving, can be too slow.

But there is a lot more to kata than that, as they often have additional or underlying reasons to practice them. For example Chinto Kata is said to be practiced for balance, Seishan to teach us how to turn on and off dynamic tension, and Naihanchi in order to teach us to use small sharp movements with our hips. Again, not so much a direct application for self defence but more a piece of training apparatus.

Can you please advise where in each of those kata those principles are being practised?

Purely from a Wado perspective the practice of these Kata are said to contain the following advantages:

Naihanchi= The first practice of “inner circular” stance. By practicing this kata one teaches the body how to keep hip rotation to a minimum. Excessive movements are a waste of time from a budo perspective, so should be trained out. By practicing Naihaichi dachi correctly this restricts hip rotation and therefore trains small, fast hip rotation from your centre.

Seishan= the progression of “inner circular stance” in that the feet are no longer in the same line.

Wado seishan is a kata of two halves, the first half is performed under tension of the muscles very much from the Nahate school of thought, and the second being with relaxed muscles. The combination of both is very much a Shurite approach to karate. Ultimately I suppose its training to master being able to turn it on and off as required.

Chinto, being probably the most senior of Wado katas is the “convergence” of the techniques found in the pinans (and therefore ultimately Kushanku) with the inner circular stances of Naihanchi and Seishan. The lightness of movement or balance bit I was referring to was the Kata-chi dachi that (in Wado) we call “Sagiashi” or heron stance. The key is to combine the lightness with the stability of the inner circular stance.

Don’t get me wrong, Wado is a great karate system for self defence (arguably one of the best), but I think it’s important to understand that if you want to learn self defence, go to a dedicated self defence class. Wado karate is an art that you can study for a lifetime.

Why the need to go to a seperate SD class? Karate (touide/tote) was established for the average bloke as means for self-defense against untrained and unarmed attackers. If you are not practising, or teaching, SD in class, then you are merely dong exercise.

I didn’t say go to a separate SD class, but if all you want to learn is SD quickly, then perhaps a dedicated SD class is your better option.

I look at karate as study of a martial system or way, with all the trappings of self improvement that come with it.

[GOM]

^^ Thank you for an excellent discussion Zanshin, but I think we have exerted enough information for the time being.

Look forward to a few more!

[Zanshin]

^^ Thank you for an excellent discussion Zanshin, but I think we have exerted enough information for the time being.

Look forward to a few more!

That's no problem. Actually I was just getting started, but never mind, I will have to reserve my mental energy for the next one.