TKD black belt exam

[kingebret]

Hi, everyone. I'm new here. I'm a red belt adult TKD student (48 years old and really out of shape, but gradually improving--I have nowhere to go but up!). My 13-year-old daughter is a novice black belt (that's the term our studio uses for students who are beyond brown belt but not yet black belts; from what I understand, the "novice black belt" stage isn't universal).

My daughter tested for her black belt recently and didn't pass. This was a surprise to us, and my daughter took it hard. She had passed her "pre-test," which is generally a harder test (full curriculum), the week before. But the pre-test is judged only by our studio's instructors (4 people). The final exam is judged by a panel of 10. Three are from our studio; the others are from other schools in the franchise. (Those instructors had never met my daughter.) A total of 21 students tested. At least 4 that I know of failed (2 from our school, out of 11 that we sent).

I have several questions. First, is it typical to have such a large panel of judges at a final exam? And is it typical to have so many judges who are strangers to the students? My concern here is that I think the different studios may be judging according to different criteria/philosophies. The schools are in a period of transition, and it would be a shame if the students were the ones to suffer for it.

Second question. I'm still not exactly sure why my daughter didn't pass her exam (students don't get to see the scoring sheets, and they don't get any written feedback or detailed comments--is this typical?), but one main comment seems to be that she lacks power. I can understand that--she weighs only 80 pounds. Power has never been her strong suit. Precision and flexibility (very high kicks) are her assets. I'm afraid she will continue to fail retests because of lack of power. Is power mandatory for children and teenage black belts? Do you all feel that all children/teens can attain the same degree of power that an adult can?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[IcemanSK]

Hi, everyone. I'm new here. I'm a red belt adult TKD student (48 years old and really out of shape, but gradually improving--I have nowhere to go but up!). My 13-year-old daughter is a novice black belt (that's the term our studio uses for students who are beyond brown belt but not yet black belts; from what I understand, the "novice black belt" stage isn't universal).

My daughter tested for her black belt recently and didn't pass. This was a surprise to us, and my daughter took it hard. She had passed her "pre-test," which is generally a harder test (full curriculum), the week before. But the pre-test is judged only by our studio's instructors (4 people). The final exam is judged by a panel of 10. Three are from our studio; the others are from other schools in the franchise. (Those instructors had never met my daughter.) A total of 21 students tested. At least 4 that I know of failed (2 from our school, out of 11 that we sent).

I have several questions. First, is it typical to have such a large panel of judges at a final exam? And is it typical to have so many judges who are strangers to the students? My concern here is that I think the different studios may be judging according to different criteria/philosophies. The schools are in a period of transition, and it would be a shame if the students were the ones to suffer for it.

Second question. I'm still not exactly sure why my daughter didn't pass her exam (students don't get to see the scoring sheets, and they don't get any written feedback or detailed comments--is this typical?), but one main comment seems to be that she lacks power. I can understand that--she weighs only 80 pounds. Power has never been her strong suit. Precision and flexibility (very high kicks) are her assets. I'm afraid she will continue to fail retests because of lack of power. Is power mandatory for children and teenage black belts? Do you all feel that all children/teens can attain the same degree of power that an adult can?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

First, welcome to the boards.

A bit on my background just so you know where I'm coming from. I've been training in Taekwondo for 25 years. I've trained with several different schools & been exposed to many more. In my experience, "typical" is a hard word to come by when talking about testing. If you'll excuse the analogy, it's a bit like saying, "what's a typical worship service like in a Christian Church?" My point is, they can vary a great deal depending on the instructor & organization. I've tested for BB ranks in front of one person, 2 people & 13 people at once. Not seeing the scores is not uncommon. I've tried to receive constructive input both before & after tests. I've gotten it from some, but not others. Try as we might, school owners/instructors try to get all judges on the same page for testing. "We're all looking for power, focus, energy (for example)" But often each judge has something they focus on more than something else.

As far as why your daughter didn't pass, I suggest that she ask her instructor. I'd be completely guessing as to why she didn't pass. I's encourage you to have her ask the instructor how she can improve. You can certainly be there to support her as she has this talk, but she needs to ask.

As for what the expectation of young teens vs adults is generally: there is generally a lower power expectation from children & younger teens. In my experience, focus & attitude compensate for lack of power. I've had students who looked bored during a test (even tho they had power) & folks that showed their complete focus & looked like they could break 50 year old trees with their bare feet (even tho they had no power). Those with focus & concentration always got higher marks from me. But again, talk to your instructor.

Don't give up! I hope that helps

[bushido_man96]

I have several questions. First, is it typical to have such a large panel of judges at a final exam? And is it typical to have so many judges who are strangers to the students? My concern here is that I think the different studios may be judging according to different criteria/philosophies. The schools are in a period of transition, and it would be a shame if the students were the ones to suffer for it.

Having many judges like this can be fairly typical. It is also typical that these judges will each discuss the scores on their sheets, and explain why they feel the way that they do. It would be likely that any differences in philosophy and criteria would be discussed and taken into account when scoring the testers.

Second question. I'm still not exactly sure why my daughter didn't pass her exam (students don't get to see the scoring sheets, and they don't get any written feedback or detailed comments--is this typical?), but one main comment seems to be that she lacks power. I can understand that--she weighs only 80 pounds. Power has never been her strong suit. Precision and flexibility (very high kicks) are her assets. I'm afraid she will continue to fail retests because of lack of power. Is power mandatory for children and teenage black belts? Do you all feel that all children/teens can attain the same degree of power that an adult can?

Your daughter will be able to develop power, and she can do this by working on her speed and technique. If the technique is already there, then as the speed comes along, her power will increase. With time, it should improve. If you are concerned that she will continue to fail tests because of this, then put off her next testing until you feel that she has developed enough to overcome this problem. She doesn't have to test everytime there is one scheduled. Let her take the extra time to build her strength, and work on all aspects of her curriculum.

With the way that many schools seem to push students through the ranks these days, it is actually quite refreshing to see a school that will seriously evaluate testings, and hold their students to a higher standard. Don't lose heart, and don't take failing as an insult. It is an opportunity evaluate and improve.

I hope this helps. Welcome to the Forums!

[ninjanurse]

Sometimes not passing is part of the test. They may look to see that she continues to train and improve with a positive attitude.

[DWx]

Speaking from my own experience, I have only tested for higher ranks under a panel of at least 5+ examiners. I'd say that the greater number of examiners is better as then an individuals own bias doesn't greatly affect the results and as Bushido_man said, the examiners can discuss the scores and stuff like that.

Did you ask for her score sheet or some written form of feedback? I've had to ask for my test papers each time I've wanted to take a look but the Master was happy to oblige. If you had instructors on the panel, they should be able to tell you why your daughter didn't pass.

As for lack of power, they probably would have taken into account her mass but would be looking for her to make up for it with speed and technique. Although it is harder for lighter people to do it, they can generate as much power as a larger person as long as they work at their technique. In my experience, examiners are expecting power relative to the person's build to be shown. It may be different in your school but for us, everyone is required to show some form of power from greenbelt upwards. Young children demonstrate on pads, older children on thin boards and older teens and adults on appropriate breaking material. It would probably be a good idea for her to work on this anyway as its something everyone can improve on, regardless of how good they are.

Ninjanurse may be right in that they are looking for dedication and perseverance. Make sure she doesn't let one failed test put her off for life! Good luck to both of you and welcome to the forum.

[Rateh]

Speaking from experience, most women, kids, and kids parents underestimate their ability to generate power. For the first 5 years in training I had no idea what power I was infact capable of (5'2" female with a small build). It wasn't till I went to a tournament that I realized my own potential. Now as an instructor and examiner I find myself in the position to tell students they need more power. When I tell them this usually they're responce is that they are too small/light to have power. What I and I'm sure the examiners are asking for isn't a universal "power", but rather more of the power she is capable of taking her size and build into account. Good luck!

[kingebret]

First, welcome to the boards.

A bit on my background just so you know where I'm coming from. I've been training in Taekwondo for 25 years. I've trained with several different schools & been exposed to many more. In my experience, "typical" is a hard word to come by when talking about testing. If you'll excuse the analogy, it's a bit like saying, "what's a typical worship service like in a Christian Church?" My point is, they can vary a great deal depending on the instructor & organization. I've tested for BB ranks in front of one person, 2 people & 13 people at once. Not seeing the scores is not uncommon. I've tried to receive constructive input both before & after tests. I've gotten it from some, but not others. Try as we might, school owners/instructors try to get all judges on the same page for testing. "We're all looking for power, focus, energy (for example)" But often each judge has something they focus on more than something else.

As far as why your daughter didn't pass, I suggest that she ask her instructor. I'd be completely guessing as to why she didn't pass. I's encourage you to have her ask the instructor how she can improve. You can certainly be there to support her as she has this talk, but she needs to ask.

As for what the expectation of young teens vs adults is generally: there is generally a lower power expectation from children & younger teens. In my experience, focus & attitude compensate for lack of power. I've had students who looked bored during a test (even tho they had power) & folks that showed their complete focus & looked like they could break 50 year old trees with their bare feet (even tho they had no power). Those with focus & concentration always got higher marks from me. But again, talk to your instructor.

Don't give up! I hope that helps

Thank you, Iceman. First my husband and I asked my daughter's instructor why she had not passed, and then the instructor talked privately with my daughter. But to tell you the truth, I don't think any of us really know why she didn't pass; there seems to have been differences of opinion among the judges. The ones from our school felt she should have passed; some of the others did too, but others didn't, and that was enough to sink her because those who didn't were among the highest-ranking belts. I'm told (so their votes were weighted more heavily). Power and focus seem to be the biggest concerns, from what I can tell.

My daughter's 13 but small (she just sprang up to 5 feet tall but is just 80 pounds, which is about the 5th percentile for weight). Her forearms are so scrawny.... she has no biceps with which to do pushups! (Fortunately she doesn't have much weight to push up, either.) Maybe because she's as tall as an adult she's being judged like one, but really she's a twig and doesn't have the sheer muscle or body mass for the kind of "power" that I think the judges would like to see. I feel bad because this is who she is. She knows the curriculum, she's bored with it now, and I guess she'll have to continue with the same material until she gains weight and "bulks up" (maybe I should get her some steroids!) and fits the traditional image of a martial artist. Her hormones will eventually catch up, hopefully, and that will help her. (If she doesn't give up first.)

Thanks again for your reply. It's hard to separate the franchise politics from the personality clashes among judges from the philosophical differences between them and the genuine shortcomings of my own child.

[kingebret]

Speaking from my own experience, I have only tested for higher ranks under a panel of at least 5+ examiners. I'd say that the greater number of examiners is better as then an individuals own bias doesn't greatly affect the results and as Bushido_man said, the examiners can discuss the scores and stuff like that.

Did you ask for her score sheet or some written form of feedback? I've had to ask for my test papers each time I've wanted to take a look but the Master was happy to oblige. If you had instructors on the panel, they should be able to tell you why your daughter didn't pass.

As for lack of power, they probably would have taken into account her mass but would be looking for her to make up for it with speed and technique. Although it is harder for lighter people to do it, they can generate as much power as a larger person as long as they work at their technique. In my experience, examiners are expecting power relative to the person's build to be shown. It may be different in your school but for us, everyone is required to show some form of power from greenbelt upwards. Young children demonstrate on pads, older children on thin boards and older teens and adults on appropriate breaking material. It would probably be a good idea for her to work on this anyway as its something everyone can improve on, regardless of how good they are.

Ninjanurse may be right in that they are looking for dedication and perseverance. Make sure she doesn't let one failed test put her off for life! Good luck to both of you and welcome to the forum.

Thank you for your reply, DWx. What you say about multiple judges and less bias makes sense. But somehow I'm not sure it worked well for us. (I do know that there was some discussion of scores, but it didn't make any difference in the end.)

I didn't ask for her scores or other written feedback because during the exam the judges said they would not be providing it. The instructors who'd been on the panel have been circumspect with what they've told us about the judges' comments, and I'm not quite sure why. I think they're trying to be discreet. I don't know whether it's to spare our feelings or to cover up the fact that they don't agree with the other judges or to maintain the anonymity of the other judges. Whatever the case, I can't squeeze much out of them. I think I'm supposed to trust that they will help my daughter "fix" what needs fixing before the next exam. (That's a little difficult for me to trust, since they didn't help her get it right the first time--whatever it was--and I'm not sure what it is now so it's hard for me to monitor her progress and assess her readiness to re-test. Maybe I should step back here, but a young person's ego is at stake and it's already taken one bad bruising.)

I don't think our studio works enough on strength training with the kids, based on what you describe and on what I've experienced in the adult classes. Board-breaking and pad/wavemaster work aren't frequent enough. My daughter is now getting weekly private lessons, some of which will work on strength training, so I'm hoping this will make up some lost ground.

I hope the judges aren't looking for "dedication and perseverance," and that failing isn't part of the test for my daughter. That seems like a lot to ask of a minor. My daughter started TKD when she was 9 years old and has spent a third of her life in training. She's forfeited all other sports, dance, music lessons, and many other extracurricular activities and vacations because we can't afford more than one pursuit for her (and her grades would suffer if she spread herself any thinner). We had been hoping that she could take a break after earning her black belt, so that she could maybe take guitar lessons and confirmation classes and start babysitting--just do some of the things other kids do while she's still a kid. Time is passing so quickly for her. But instead the intensive training process continues, and really there's no end in sight; there's no guarantee of when she'll be ready to earn her black belt (if ever).

Right now my daughter seems committed to continuing her private lessons and somewhat committed to continuing to attend classes till she tests again. So I don't think she consciously would let one failed test put her off for life. But she has to fight the attraction of other activities, the fatigue of the chronically sleep-deprived teenager, and the boredom of the too-familiar as the months go by. The lure of the black belt (not a sure bet) may seem less worth striving for on a daily basis; it's hard to sustain enthusiasm indefinitely. As her mother I can "force" her to attend classes (I guess), but I hate to do that, and as she gets older I'm finding that forcing her works less and less well. I try to reserve "forcing" for instances where her health is at stake, or similarly serious situations.

If I may say, this experience has totally disillusioned me from striving for a black belt myself. I'm testing this month for my brown belt, and if I am fortunate enough to earn it, I'll be happy with that. I can then learn the rest of the underbelt curriculum, and I'll feel I have achieved almost as much as a black belt. If I were to proceed to the final exam, it would ruin everything for me. The focus shifts to what you can't do, what you're weak at, where you fall short, what you can't take pride in. (I have no illusions about performing flawlessly no matter how long and how hard I train; I'm overweight and in poor health, and though I've come amazingly far since starting 2.5 years ago I'm never going to look like a "black belt.") It's sad for me, because my martial arts pursuits will come to an end soon, but it's the reality of who I am. I'm happy I've achieved what I have; it's more than I ever expected.

Sorry for rambling, and thanks again very much for your response.

[dineshm]

It's good that she didn't drop out, I probably would of.

You learn alot more from failure, than from passing.

It may sound rough, but it's a good life lesson for her, and from the looks of it ,she has handled it quite well, becoming of a young lady.

You should be proud of her, and keep her on the right track.

Good luck with your exam!

[kingebret]

It's good that she didn't drop out, I probably would of.

You learn alot more from failure, than from passing.

It may sound rough, but it's a good life lesson for her, and from the looks of it ,she has handled it quite well, becoming of a young lady.

You should be proud of her, and keep her on the right track.

Good luck with your exam!

Thank you so much for your kind words. Kindnesses always bring tears to my eyes and this was no exception. I guess my emotions are still raw about this. (Parents are always very vulnerable where their children are concerned.)