Forms/Kata

[dineshm]

For my first couple of years training, I hated sparring.

I would train mainly kata, my basics, and only spar for gradings.

Once, I went to a tournament, and got thrown in the ring against a seasoned Nidan.

I won.

Kata is sort of like Microsoft Flight simulator..it's not going to teach you to fly a plane perfectly, but if you are ever in the situation, you aren't caught with your pants down

[cross]

For my first couple of years training, I hated sparring.

I would train mainly kata, my basics, and only spar for gradings.

Once, I went to a tournament, and got thrown in the ring against a seasoned Nidan.

I won.

Kata is sort of like Microsoft Flight simulator..it's not going to teach you to fly a plane perfectly, but if you are ever in the situation, you aren't caught with your pants down

Consider if you did sport specific training has opposed to kata, you would gain far greater results, in a shorter period of time.

[ninjanurse]

These are great tools for martial artists not just historical artifacts. All kata and drills help to pattern our minds and bodies to a specific motion that we can then build on, add to, etc. Numerous "patterns" lay the foundation for reaction to many different situations in sparring and self-defense. Modern drills are no different in their goals, just "new".

So if kata program your body for specific motion, how is the specific motion of throwing a punch from a long stance with your other hand at your hip and holding the punching arm out straight at the end of the movement benifitial? If you are programming it, has you say, why not program useful things?

All motion is beneficial to training whether you see it or not. The internal changes of muscle, tendon, and bone are just as important as the external form...and kata are just another tool to effect change.

[cross]

All motion is beneficial to training whether you see it or not. The internal changes of muscle, tendon, and bone are just as important as the external form...and kata are just another tool to effect change.

Doing something is always better than doing nothing. However, motion that teaches your body to do one thing, when you should be doing another, is not beneficial, its detrimental to progress, causes contradiction of ideas and confusion.

[NightOwl]

These are great tools for martial artists not just historical artifacts. All kata and drills help to pattern our minds and bodies to a specific motion that we can then build on, add to, etc. Numerous "patterns" lay the foundation for reaction to many different situations in sparring and self-defense. Modern drills are no different in their goals, just "new".

I am trying not to repeat too much of what I already said on the previous topic on kata or this thread, but I often hear the argument made for kata being useful for muscle memory. Now the problem with that in my opinion is this: muscle memory is best built using simplicity and repetition. However in a kata, you are not neither

A: Performing a simple movement necessary for rapid muscle memory development- especially in the higher ranked forms

B: replicating the moves in a way as to how you would actually use it in real life (ie with a partner), and furthermore many of the actual uses have been forgotten because of the emphasis on kata rather than application work

C: focusing on a particular move or short set which would help you remember it best - you instead are learning more or less a huge mass of moves and prearranged stepping that would be hard to put to use as you practice it in the forms since it is so stiff and choreographed. Thus even if you did get it down to muscle memory, it wouldn't help you much with the moves in the set.

However if you did want to work on muscle memory, you would be better served by-

A: taking one move and working on it (such as kick drills)

B: Working on an application drill so that you can build muscle memory for how it is actually used, not as in the steps to a kata.

I think the biggest difference between high kata training and little to no kata training can be highlighted in karate. Mind, this isn't to say that all practitioners in one style are better than the other, but in general karateka of the shotokan school (with a traditionally high emphasis on kata as it was made for an educational environment) and a karateka of the kyokushin school (with little to no emphasis on forms and a high emphasis on employing techniques) will turn out very differently- usually with kyokushin having a much higher rate of success in terms of being able to demonstrate applicability. That isn't to say that forms are evil incarnate- they aren't. If you have an interest in them then by all means pursue it. However don't take something that has been shown not to help in combat (perhaps even hinder it since you are taking time away from 'hard training') and try to make it into something it is not. It is however, a good way to relax and meditate- and some people find it enjoyable to do. I am not one of those people, but I don't see any reason why you shouldn't do it if you have a strong interest in it. But I have seen classes where 25-50% of the class is kata work, and to me that doesn't seem like an efficient use of time.

[bushido_man96]

Good post, NightOwl.

[ninjanurse]

I never made reference to muscle memory in my post but I am glad you brought it up. Muscle memory takes on many forms....for example learning to crawl before you walk and learning to walk before you run. Whether obvious or not there are a lot of things in our development that give us muscle memory and pattern our minds/bodies for future skills that may or may not be similar in appearance or use.

[bushido_man96]

I never made reference to muscle memory in my post but I am glad you brought it up. Muscle memory takes on many forms....for example learning to crawl before you walk and learning to walk before you run. Whether obvious or not there are a lot of things in our development that give us muscle memory and pattern our minds/bodies for future skills that may or may not be similar in appearance or use.

This is kind of the approach that my instructor takes. In basics, we work on the long, exaggerated motions of, say, the double knifehand block, and work to build speed with it, and work all of those muslces along the way. Then, when we want to shorten the movement, we can. He says it is always easier to shorten a movement once you have trained it long, then the other way around. In some ways, this can be a good thing.

[AikiGuy]

Wow, this is quite a debate. I practice Karate (among other disciplines) and I realize the purpose for Kata and think it's a great learning tool. There are many reasons to do kata and few people truly understand all of them. I happen to like them a lot so I've given it a lot of thought and I believe I understand more of this issue than many I have met. However I do think some schools do more than they need to.

Now the problem with that in my opinion is this: muscle memory is best built using simplicity and repetition. However in a kata, you are not neither

A: Performing a simple movement necessary for rapid muscle memory development- especially in the higher ranked forms

Of course you are doing simple movements for muscle memory. Each move taken by itself is simple once you have learned it. After that you just do 45 of them in a row and call it a kata. But then they look complicated to the untrained eye.

B: replicating the moves in a way as to how you would actually use it in real life (ie with a partner), and furthermore many of the actual uses have been forgotten because of the emphasis on kata rather than application work

Actually it's better to exaggerate the movements in practice instead of doing shorter, faster, more realistic movements. You tend to shortcut your movements when you are hurried or under stress. So if you overdo your movements in training, then shortening them will put you right where you need to be. Yes this works! I have experienced it in a real fight and it's true. Also practicing with a partner is sometimes not very realistic since it's usually someone in your own style. This means someone of a different art (or no art) may surprise you.

C: focusing on a particular move or short set which would help you remember it best - you instead are learning more or less a huge mass of moves and prearranged stepping that would be hard to put to use as you practice it in the forms since it is so stiff and choreographed. Thus even if you did get it down to muscle memory, it wouldn't help you much with the moves in the set.

Choreographed? Yes. Stiff? No. Not unless they are doing it wrong or they just learned that kata. Also, a huge mass of movements is nothing more than many smaller movements done one after the other. It's like a boxer learning a 2 punch combo, a 3 punch combo, and a 4 punch combo and then putting them all together in one sequence. Boxers call it shadow boxing. Martial artists call it kata.

However if you did want to work on muscle memory, you would be better served by-

A: taking one move and working on it (such as kick drills)

B: Working on an application drill so that you can build muscle memory for how it is actually used, not as in the steps to a kata.

Actually we do this. We practice each single movement alone before we are expected to perform the entire kata well. The kata just strings them together so it's easier for an instructor to test/evaluate a student on many key items in a shorter amount of time instead of calling out one item at a time then waiting for a student to perform it, then going to the next item and waiting again. Kata is also a good way to memorize this list of required key movements so you can practice at home by yourself.

...in general karateka of the shotokan school (with a traditionally high emphasis on kata as it was made for an educational environment) and a karateka of the kyokushin school (with little to no emphasis on forms and a high emphasis on employing techniques) will turn out very differently- usually with kyokushin having a much higher rate of success in terms of being able to demonstrate applicability.

There are different modes of fighting. Sparring prepares you for stand-up fighting at some distance the way another trained stand-up fighter would spar. Defense techniques (called waza) prepare you for for wild or lunging surprise attacks. Grappling prepares you for clinch and ground fighting. I'm sure every school boasts a higher success rate at their own specialty. If the Kyokushin people you mentioned go to a jujutsu or wrestling school, they may not do as well. This is true of any art.

...don't take something that has been shown not to help in combat (perhaps even hinder it since you are taking time away from 'hard training') and try to make it into something it is not. It is however, a good way to relax and meditate- and some people find it enjoyable to do.

Again it depends on what type of combat you mean. But anything that helps you remember a movement will help in combat. This includes kata. Hopefully after reading this post, you realize kata offers far more than relaxation and meditation.

But I have seen classes where 25-50% of the class is kata work, and to me that doesn't seem like an efficient use of time.

Some might say the same thing about a boxing or MT gym where they spend half the time doing bag work or shadow boxing (since kata is our version of shadow boxing). Should they do more ring time with a partner? Not really. It's really the same movements so it still works to improve your skill. You start out shadow, move up to the bag, then move to the ring once you have become proficient. But you are still doing the same movements. Once you understand that, it doesn't matter which one you do.

[bushido_man96]

You make some good points, AikiGuy. However, I disagree that drill practice and katas are the same thing. I know this can spark its own debate, but I really don't think they are the same thing. Just my opinion, though.