Self defense for (academic) students

[The BB of C]

The second day of school came around and it was a pretty normal day. Then suddenly, during lunch, I see a student jump on the back of another student. He threw him onto a table and punched him in the back of the head. I saw the other student try to get out but couldn't escape. It was clear to me he wasn't trying to fight back. The only teacher that was there was a tiny, old woman who frankly wouldn't have been able to separate the two if her life depended on it. So I did. I ran over and pulled the student to throw the first punch away and locked his arms behind his back. The student that got attacked ran away.

The next day, the student that got attacked thanked me for helping him out. He said the only reason he didn't swing back is because he could have gotten kicked out of school. This instantly struck me as rediculous and told him if he got hit first he automatically had the right to defend himself within reasonable terms. A nearby teacher told me that the school has an absolute zero tolerance policy and both of them would have gotten arrested and suspended from the school immidiately if he had thrown a punch. The reason? They were afraid of another Columbine shooting happening in the school. Seriously, what in the heck is that about? Then the teacher and I got in a 20 minute long debate about a kids right to defend himself in school. I think I won because she told me I should go into a school administrative position for a career. But it got me thinking.

What do you think of the situation?

[gzk]

I would prefer a situation where the kid attacked would have the right to punch the attacker after he initiated the fight, not have him wait to have the attacker punch him. Unfortunately that doesn't seem likely to be allowed, so I would go for grappling techniques in such a situation - which is more or less what you did. I would probably be careful of applying a submission technique because there's a lot of misinformation about chokes and the school administration could well accuse you of trying to kill the kid, and he's not going to know to tap to a joint lock. Then again, you might be able to hold an arm lock at a degree where it's painful but not going to break - up to you really. If there is a likelihood of a teacher coming quickly, I would just try to get a dominant and/or restraining position, eg: mount him, mount his back, get my hooks in and possibly S-grip or maybe a full nelson, or my personal favourite, the kneeride, because if you do it correctly, you can push all your weight through your knee into his diaphragm and have him struggle for breath, you're set up to armbar either arm if you wish, and you can easily jump up, or push the knee through and go to full mount, or go to side control.

Using Columbine to justify a no self-defence policy seems very questionable to me. If you look at the common themes of the perpetrators of school shootings, the biggest ones are a feeling of alienation, of being oppressed, and being bullied. Punishing kids for fighting off bullies seems a great way to push a borderline kid over the edge.

[scottnshelly]

Did the "attacker" get expelled for breaking the zero tolerance policy?

[KarateEd]

This over-reaction because of Columbine and similar events is ridiculous. Of course, considering the litigious nature of modern society you can't really blame the schools. gzk makes a good point in mentioning the use of grappling techniques, such as The BB of C used, in order to protect oneself from bullies AND avoid the repercussions of a "no tolerance" policy.

Personally, I think if a student is defending himself, he shouldn't be punished for doing so.

BTW, good job in helping out that kid BB of C

Ed

[KNOCKuOUT]

I think everyone has the right to defend themselves, as long as it really is in a time of self defense. Just because someone bad mouths your mother, or something along those lines doesn't give anyone the right to go and strike that person. But in the circumstances the BB of C has presented, the kid should have struck back. He would have maybe installed some fear in the kid not to mess with him. Let the bully know he will defend himself in necessary.

[bushido_man96]

First off, good for you for breaking the situation up. Its also good that the guy you pulled off didn't take after you for stopping him.

As for your point, I think you are right. However, rules and what seems right in our eyes don't always add up. I can see the point that the school is trying to make, though. Things have changed so much since I was in high school about 10 years ago (damn, has it been that long!!! ).

What needs to be in place is a process that interrogates each of the students to analyze what caused the situation to take place. That way, each student could have been evaluated and punished accordingly. However, as scared as some administrative professionals may be of liability suits, I don't know if it will change or not.

[Jay]

This is a load of rubbish person who hits first is wrong and person who defends himself is right the person who throws the first first punch in my opinion is generally always wrong unless the first punch had to be thrown in order to prevent the other guy hitting him first. As for the shooting business i wouldnt know as generally we dont have guns in schools ie its much less common in UK

[ps1]

We had this policy at my high school. That was 10 years ago now. It wasn't in response to Columbine, which took place two years after I graduated. It was because they just didn't want fighting. It was an automatic 1 wk suspension for the first offense and you were expelled for the second. They determined it was too difficult to figure out who threw the first punch and what actually constituted a first attack. That is...even though little jonny didn't punch first, he may have been nagging harshly. Maybe he used the "N" word or used a delicate situation against someone. Those are also types of attacks. There was one case where a student had someone making fun of the fact that his mom had killed his father and committed suicide in front of him. I would have punched him too.

Anyway, you get the point. Their solution was a zero tolerance policy. It was very effective.

[NightOwl]

Nah, I don't think so- I ran into these kinds of things when I was in middle school. The Principle actually agreed that I probably was in the right (especially seeing how I lost the fight haha), but I got a minor suspension as well. Really, the kinds of kids who will bully aren't too concerned about whether or not they are breaking the rules, and it won't stop them. The only people it will stop are those who need to defend themselves for the most part.

[SBN Doug]

You guys talking about being in high school 10 years ago, but acting all "old" had better shut up before you tick me off.

Had my 20 yr reunion a couple years ago.