training @ black belt level

[bushido_man96]

I didn't know starting this thread would stir up such controversy.

I wouldn't call it controversy; just friendly discussion!

My goal as of right now is to consistently improve my physical fitness and reach black belt. That does not mean that once I reach that point, I will give up on my physical training. I want to forever improve my mental and physical well being, as long as there is always a mentor there to guide me along. I'm not sure if everyone would agree with me on that or not, but it sounds like a good plan to me and I will try to stick by it the best I can.

That sounds like a great plan! Stick to it, and you will reap many happy rewards.

[bushido_man96]

So do you think there should be an age limit on getting your black belt?

There are lots of arguements on this. However, many of those who would state that they don't think young kids should wear black belts are also the same ones that will tell you that "a belt just holds up your pants," or "rank doesn't really mean anything," etc.

In the end, it is something that you will have to come to a conclusion on yourself. As DWx said, a case by case basis is a pretty good idea. I have seen lots of kids with black belts, and I am not sure what to make of it. Personally, I don't worry about it that much myself. At this point, I don't promote anyone, so I have the option of reflecting on how I would do things differently. I would like for my son to get into the Martial Arts eventually, but I don't know how I will approach this with him. I don't think I want him in on the various "kids programs" that focus more on character building and what not as opposed to proper technique. I can build his character at the home. However, working technique with him is something I look forward to doing with him.

Here is a funny scenario to think about. I hope that my boy takes up Wrestling; I would love to get him into kids Wrestling first. If that happened, he could wrestle for around 4 or 5 years, and then I could start him on TKD. If he did wrestle from the age of 4 to 9, and got good at it, and won some tournaments, people would call him a good wrestler, and all that nice stuff. However, if he got into TKD at 4, and had the same success, and was given a black belt by someone at the age of 9, I would have to listen to how many other Martial Artists would question his ability or rank, when, as a 9 year old, his skill may be good enough to put him head and shoulders above many other 9 year olds (not that I would do that, because I wouldn't want him to have to put up with those kinds of things as a child).

In the end, when you look at someone's rank, think about how they compare to the peers of their group; kids with kids, adults with adults.

[nine_weapons]

So do you think there should be an age limit on getting your black belt?

yes. Some styles do this. Judo is one.

[DWx]

Yes I don't think anyone under 15 should ever wear a black belt. By 15 one is able to do most the physical and start on the mental things you need.

Not only is this a sweeping statement across all indviduals, I think it ignores one important factor:

Age does not equal mental ability, capacity or maturity.

Sure it helps but it is not the most important factor. And how does one judge when you are mentally suited to be given a belt in any case? Maybe if someone defined what mental things you need to suddenly have grasped on your 15th birthday, I might be more inclined to see this way of thinking.

As with my "before and after blackbelt" arguement earlier on, I do not think that the "blackbelt mentallity" of a martial artist should be developed only when they have acheived blackbelt status. This should accompany training right from the beginning and should be improving all the time. When childeren are taught martial arts it is always stressed in our dojang that they need to know when and where fighting is appropriate. On the last grading panel I sat on, I asked a 5 year old white belt to tell me when and where he should use his TKD. The kid gave me a whole list of senarios of where it was not appropriate to attempt to fight somebody such as in the playground at school. For me this is exactly the type of mentality that needs to be developed at an early age and at the start of training rather than later on when a blackbelt is granted or when the person's birthday occurs.

If we are talking about mental things in the sense of understanding techniques and applications, shouldn't this also accompany training throughout? What use is it to learn a movement in a form but not know what type of attack/defense that movement is? It would be like learning how to write the alphabet by first learning how to draw the shapes and then learning the sounds after you could write the letters in joined up handwriting.

What about understanding of philosophies and ideals that accompany many MAs? Well surely people who are more intelligent have a higher chance of understanding a philosphy than those with less mental ability. So an intelligent 13 year old who has the same physical abilities of a less intelligent 15 year old would not be promoted because they are too young. Yet to me, I would see these two martial artists on equal footing or even perhaps the 13 year old might be more suited to the blackbelt.

I cannot think of any other mental things that one would need to develop once attaining blackbelt so if anyone cares to explain them I will re-examine my argument.

As for physically maturing by the time you turn 15, we all know that different people mature quicker than others.

Females actually hit puberty sooner than males so their bodies turn into "adult bodies" sooner. By this reckoning a female should be able to do the physical aspect sooner because they have been in an adult state longer and so would have developed their bones etc. Then you get the differences within the genders. How many times as a kid did you try to buy things like movies and alcohol underage? The people that get away with it look older than their peers because they have physicaly matured faster. So why should there be a set age benchmark for people to be physically ready to receive a blackbelt? It should be a physical benchmark... but wait, we already have that in the form of a physical test.

As someone who received their blackbelt at a comparitively young age I tend to be biased towards allowing for child blackbelts however I must insist that this should be on a case by case basis...

[nine_weapons]

Age does not equal mental ability, capacity or maturity.

it does account for physical capacity though. most 15 year olds will ever be as strong as a healthy adult male. IMO, you must have the physical ability to use the skills you were given. having the skill means little if you can only use it effectively against a limited number of the population. In judo, if I recall correctly has an age requirement of 17.

[Zanshin]

Age does not equal mental ability, capacity or maturity.

it does account for physical capacity though. most 15 year olds will ever be as strong as a healthy adult male. IMO, you must have the physical ability to use the skills you were given. having the skill means little if you can only use it effectively against a limited number of the population. In judo, if I recall correctly has an age requirement of 17.

I am not convinced about that. Just because a 15 year olds physical ability can not match that of an adult, why should they be denied Dan grade.

I am a grown man, but my physical ability might not match that of man 12 inches taller than me and 4 stone heavier. Does this mean I shouldn't be allowed to be a black belt?

I agree there is an argument that allowing kids to become Dan grades too young (or perhaps more importantly too quickly) as not good, but I feel if they are mentally mature enough and their techniques are there, then they should be given the opportunity to grade for junior shodan.

[bushido_man96]

Age does not equal mental ability, capacity or maturity.

it does account for physical capacity though. most 15 year olds will ever be as strong as a healthy adult male. IMO, you must have the physical ability to use the skills you were given. having the skill means little if you can only use it effectively against a limited number of the population. In judo, if I recall correctly has an age requirement of 17.

I can see the point behind your argument here. However, there are skills to be learned that are not physical, such as environmental awareness and things like this. Physical strength has nothing to do with these skills, yet these skills could save a child from an adult, just the same. However, we don't ever discuss these skills when we make the black belt age argument. We just picture the kid having to fight the adult.

[nine_weapons]

Age does not equal mental ability, capacity or maturity.

it does account for physical capacity though. most 15 year olds will ever be as strong as a healthy adult male. IMO, you must have the physical ability to use the skills you were given. having the skill means little if you can only use it effectively against a limited number of the population. In judo, if I recall correctly has an age requirement of 17.

I am not convinced about that. Just because a 15 year olds physical ability can not match that of an adult, why should they be denied Dan grade.

I am a grown man, but my physical ability might not match that of man 12 inches taller than me and 4 stone heavier. Does this mean I shouldn't be allowed to be a black belt?

No. It means you need to train harder. Either that or look more into proper use of things like leverage. your adult frame combined with said knowledge should be enough. If I am grappling a guy 100 lbs heavier than me (which I have) and cannot find a way to seize an advantage, then that is entirely my fault. At age 15, however, my body is not fully matured yet.

I agree there is an argument that allowing kids to become Dan grades too young (or perhaps more importantly too quickly) as not good, but I feel if they are mentally mature enough and their techniques are there, then they should be given the opportunity to grade for junior shodan.

in judo (sticking with that example), there is no junior shodan. IMO, that is the way it should be. MA is not about belt rank anyway, but skill level, so why would you feel the desire to have a black belt? just keep your junior ranking and continue to advance until you are old enough to attaina black belt.

[nine_weapons]

Age does not equal mental ability, capacity or maturity.

it does account for physical capacity though. most 15 year olds will ever be as strong as a healthy adult male. IMO, you must have the physical ability to use the skills you were given. having the skill means little if you can only use it effectively against a limited number of the population. In judo, if I recall correctly has an age requirement of 17.

I can see the point behind your argument here. However, there are skills to be learned that are not physical, such as environmental awareness and things like this. Physical strength has nothing to do with these skills, yet these skills could save a child from an adult, just the same. However, we don't ever discuss these skills when we make the black belt age argument. We just picture the kid having to fight the adult.

I don't disagree with that. However, you don't have to have a black belt to learn those things.

[bushido_man96]

I don't disagree with that. However, you don't have to have a black belt to learn those things.

I agree. It shows that there is more than just physical technique involved.