Strengh Vs Speed

[Taikudo-ka]

Actually Bruce at his peak was more like 140lbs, which is 10 stone, or about 64kg...

 

I'm just a few pounds short of this, and about 1-3" taller (Bruce claimed to be 5' 8" but I've heard 5' 6" would be more accurate, I'm about 5' 9")

 

Would it make you jealous if I say I have a Bruce Lee body type, just not quite as developed and cut as he was. But the same wide shoulders, narrow waist, virtually nil body fat, even though I eat whatever the hell I feel like, including fried bacon and eggs, hamburgers, steaks, cakes, full cream dairy, nuts, chocolate, etc...

 

I've never been very serious about my weight training though, so I'm not massive. I have a 2 pack maybe, not the full six, but what little muscle I do have all shows

 

I think the only way I can gain weight is through training. Eating doesn't work for me, and if I don't do some physical activity, I don't get that hungry anyway. My appetite is directly related to my physical activity, I have noticed.

 

As for strength vs speed, I guess it comes down to what you define as "strength" because the more I learn about how muscles work the more I realize that our English definition is rather vague.

 

For example, the ability to hit hard is not directly related to the ability to lift heavy weights. Did you know that your biceps are virtually useless as far as throwing a hard punch goes?

 

That's because muscles only pull, or contract, they don't push. It's your triceps (the muscle underneath when you do a typical arm flex) that propel the fist forward when you punch. The forwards "push" effect of the punch is achieved through leverage on the elbow joint (and not from the biceps pushing the arm out!) Your punch will actually be faster and harder if you keep your biceps loose during the entire motion, including the strike. The only thing the biceps will do is bring that arm back in towards you.

 

Muscles come in "fast" and "slow" types - called fast and slow twitch. Fast twitch are for rapid, sudden movements - like punching. Basically imparting speed. Slow twitch are for exerting torque - drawn out pulling power for lifting heavy loads, performing long, slow repetitive exertions like walking, etc.

 

Each muscle type develops with different forms of exercise, although most forms will develop both to some degree, although in different ratios.

 

I consulted with my friend who is a professional personal trainer, heavily into how muscles work, and he confirmed my theory.

 

Also being heavily into wrestling, he was happy to demonstrate to me how effective the biceps ARE for crushing bear hugs, all sorts of pulling actions, locks and holds and other painful stuff

 

Now that you know how to use your muscles properly, we can look how to actually figure out and measure the force of a punch. What makes a punch "hard" vs. "soft"?

 

Basic physics tells us that the force of an object on collision is equal to its mass x velocity (speed as measured in a straight line - waving your hand around really fast while not going forward much doesn't count here as "speed". It may fool your opponent, but not the laws of physics )

 

If we look at velocity first, we see that the most obvious source is the arm snapping forward with the action of fast twitch triceps muscle.

 

However, velocity is additive. If the punch is launched from an already moving platform, the speed of the arm movement can be added to the speed of the platform, ie the body. Thus the basic karate step and punch where the forward velocity of the arm is added to the momentum of the step. Another way to gain speed is the twist of the hips, adding the rotational velocity of the body to the forward arm movement.

 

The mass should basically be equivalent to your body weight. However, it gets a little bit more complicated here. If you're just flying through the air, then yes, your body weight times the final velocity of your fist, adding together all the speeds of the forward movement, the punch itself, is the final force with which you strike.

 

Now when two objects collide, i.e. your fist and your opponents face, they exert an "equal but opposite reaction". Without getting too complex, the force of your punch bounces back on you. Thus, if you stand up lightly on your tip toes and hit or push something solid, you'll be pushed back, it won't move. Likewise, pushing something much heavier than yourself means you go back, not it.

 

The more you collapse, pull back, or otherwise absorb the force of your own punch, the less it is transmitted to your opponent.

 

Body weight helps here, as I've mentioned, but what is more important is to be able to firmly root yourself to the ground, keep your arm and wrist solid without bending the wrist, collapsing the elbow, or allowing your body to be pushed back away from your opponent in any way.

 

Mainly, you want the wrist and forearm to be tense on the moment of impact, (although relaxed up to that point) along with the triceps, although the biceps should remain loose the entire time.

 

Your stance on the moment of impact should be totally solid. You should not be able to be pushed backward from the line of strike. The weaker your stance, the more you'll just be pushed back by your own punch.

 

You should also strike "through" your opponent a few inches. This will drive the punch in, adding some long twitch pushing force to the equation to drive the opponent back.

 

I'm not exactly sure how the mass goes if you're 100% rooted to the ground. It could just be your total body weight, rather than the fraction you'd get by having a weak stance, but I've heard that you can transmit the "mass of the earth" by being totally attached and a part of it, according to the physics calculations... This would explain seemingly "superhuman" feats with simple mathematics...

 

In any case, the final force comes down to how much your bone structure can support. If you hit something totally hard and resistant with a powerful enough blow, you will break your own bones... You can try and strike with stronger bones rather than weaker ones, but the principle is still the same. Ironically, the harder you can hit, the softer, more giving a striking surface you'll need.

 

Fortunately, people are not THAT hard.

 

[ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-06-06 13:32 ]

[ckdstudent]

Nope, you couldn't transmit the mass of the earth because the earth is relatively stationary, relative to both yourself and your opponent. The absolute maximum mass that you could put into any technique would be your own bodyweight, and for that you'd need to be freefalling through vacuum to land on them.

 

 

[Taikudo-ka]

OK, I agree the "mass of the earth" theory is a bit far fetched, but I came across it somewhere... However, if your stance upon striking is such that all your weight is driven into your fist, couldn't you get close to 100% of your weight behind the blow. If you stand in front of something fairly solid, with a stance like you've just struck it, and can raise your front leg so that all your weight is being transmitted from your back leg up through to your fist, then I'd say you're using most of your weight possible. I know their is an equation for working out this "mass pivoting on a fixed point" force but I don't know what it is. F = M x V is good for showing the basics, particularly how speed is important to the equation, but not exactly how mass relates to a person standing on a surface like the earth. See, the problem is that in the free fall you describe, Newtons law means you bounce back with equal and opposite force to whatever you hit (or break if its hard enough) But if you're stuck to the ground, then the "equal and opposite" force that you feel on punching can't push you back. So, assuming it doesn't break your bones, where does it go? Into the ground, or can it in turn be "bounced back" into the opponent? Any physics/engineering professors out there care to tell us what the mass of a punch would be, assuming the body is held rigid and wrist, elbow, legs, etc, don't bend back. (Assume sufficient structural and muscle strength to avoid this happening - for simplicities sake).

[Nickgarren]

Just my opinion and I may be wrong but I'll have to go with speed. Reason is, take a bullet, if you throw it at someone it just bounces off and may sting a little, but put speed behind it by fireing it from a gun and it goes into and sometimes through you. The bullet itself doesn't get stronger, it just moves faster, a lot faster.

[ckdstudent]

Where the equal and opposite force goes is a good question, which I used to know the answer to. I believe that the answer to the question is that the reactive force doesn't actually act on your fist, but on your entire body. As you throw the punch a force pushes your entire body backwards, when you hit a target the original force is transferred to them, and there is a new equal and opposite reaction to their movement.

 

 

[Taikudo-ka]

Hmmm... the F=MxV equation seems great to explain (very simply) the force of the punch, and how speed fits in. Basically, when we talk about a punch, "strength" IS "speed". That is, how fast you can launch the "projectile" (your fist) forward.

 

The gun analogy was excellent. Except there the mass is easy - weight of the bullet.

 

But with a fist, connected to a person? There must be an answer, and whatever it is holds the key to the other half of the "power punch".

 

I'm guessing that whatever body mass you actually have in momentum on the moment of impact adds to the total mass of the equation. Thus if you stand still, only the weight of your arm and fist count. If your body is in forward motion on the moment of impact, with the weight "supported" through the punching fist, I'd say the body weight would then be added to the equation.

 

 

[aitkd2nddan]

speed is more important once the art is mastered, however, someone starting off who doesn't have good TECHNIQUE would be better of being stronger, so they both have there merits. The best thing to do would be to find a balance between the two that best suits your individual needs.

 

 

[jiu-jitsu fighter]

you should work on developing speed , before you start to focus on power, if u develop speed, than and only than should you begin to add more and more power to your techniques ,but having power should not compromise your speed

[Synaesthesia]

"Nope, you couldn't transmit the mass of the earth because the earth is relatively stationary, relative to both yourself and your opponent. The absolute maximum mass that you could put into any technique would be your own bodyweight, and for that you'd need to be freefalling through vacuum to land on them."

 

Not true unless you are punching someone while standing on perfectly smooth ice!

 

The friction between your feet and the ground would allow you to put more force into your punch than would otherwise be possible at a given velocity. (Since legs, torso and shoulders also play a role in generating the force.)

[WhiteBelt]

Definitely speed. The faster you get that punch going the more energy & force is going into your opponent.

 

Strength = lifting weights

 

Power = Strength + Speed ... how quickly you can use your strength.

 

As for bodyweight being put into a punch, well, the faster your bodyweight is moving the more it hurts. You can't change your weight dynamically, but you can change your speed.

 

If you try punching somebody on frictionless ice, well it just won't hurt as much. You'll be moving away from your opponent before you even hit em, effectively slowing down your punch.