Tai Chi--usefull for self defense..?

[dtstiachi]

True Sam,

My grandmaster has told me it takes 10 years to master the first lesson. I guess I have a lot of work to do. When one is shown how to use Tai Chi's martail uses, The art can come alive and is amazingly effective. Usefull for self defense? Yes

[Sam]

i think most arts when practicedw ell are useful to some degre... its just a matter of degree and how you train [as i always say].

We seem to agree alot

[italian_guy]

i think most arts when practicedw ell are useful to some degre... its just a matter of degree and how you train [as i always say].

We seem to agree alot

I agree... even if you need self-defence proficient with TCC you may need more time then with other martial arts, although TCC has lots of additional benefits.

[Sam]

as i always say... so long as you know what you're getting out of your trainign then it doesnt really matter

[Ted T.]

For those who disagreed with my assertion that years are necessary to "use" taic chi effectively,

Is tai chi just ordinary training done slow or something else? Are a boxer's punch, a karate punch and a tai chi punch all the same?

Anyone can hit someone else with their fist. Training teaches us how to be stronger, to be more effective at hitting and should teach us something about avoiding getting hit and distancing too.

I have trained in schools where tai chi was taught and the principles were the same as basic Japanese karate; only the form of the hand and the directional arc of the punch were different and the training was done slow, not fast and hard. Other than that, no difference!

Is that tai chi? Of course not...

The simplest way to hit someone is to just swing your fist at them. The easiest way to hit with a bit more force is to step into the hit a little and to drop your weight into the hit. The next easiest method to learn is to torque the hips as you step to add the waist into the generation of power.

External styles all do these things, from East to West. If your tai chi does this, it is an external style, not internal. If this is what we are tailking about as effective taichi, then ok, why not, it is all good,

But,

Internal development of power depends upon a lining up of the joints and torso to align all the power available from the feet up into a powerless hand. The power comes from inside the body's actual structure, not its "strength" or musculature, and from rotation only.

First it takes years to open the joints so they are loose enough to do what you ask of them. Then you have to be asking them to do the right thing to create power. Then you have to learn to do it fast and hard. Then you have to learn how to cope with a resisting opponent when working with a cooperative partner is hard enough!

If you get all this in three months, you can be called The Bruce!

I can teach anyone who can walk, talk and chew gum at the same time practical self defence in three hours - - but it ain't tai chi.

imho

May I refer you to the clip current in the forums (I'm sorry, I don't have time to find a reference), in which Drunken stylists are beaten pretty well by karate guys. Why? Because they insisted on "doing their style" rather than fighting. Is tai chi effective? Nope, but some of its principles are...

[Hachidan]

Coming from a very broad backround, I find the principals of Yang style T'ai Chi Chuan to be "higher principals." As such, once internalized, they will benifit and enhance any other martial arts abilities possessed by the practitioner.

It does take longer to be proficient at T'ai Chi. Perhaps it will take 6-10 yrs. to get to a fighting, entry level black belt equivalent. However, at that point, whenever it occurs, martial evolution can proceed in an exponential manner compared to the "faster/harder" arts. This, naturally, depends on the continuation of practice and edeavor.

My teacher, the late, forever great, Grand Master Jou Hwa taught that the art was based upon the development of Chi, which he defined as "psychic navel power." He taught that the continued development of this power would " remove the veil " and that there would be no end to the potential for martial and mystical development. He teachings indicated that this was the most mystical of all martial arts, that its principals were the highest, and that it was the most effective at the higher levels.

It is not for no reason that T'ai Chi is referred to as The Supreme Ultimate Fist. It hits you on the inside. T'ai Chi can do so from zero distance. Some high level practitioners have extreme knowledge of chi meridians and how to utilize them to heal or to destroy. In addition there is an extremely potent Chi Na type vocabulary within the arsenal of many practitioners. This is a trigger art. It is a structure designed to capture( Recieve and stick to) and guide your force, to glide with it and away from it, to turn it against you, to cave in on you, to sink you, uproot you, throw you away.

Attacking what I just described is like attacking yourself. It feeds on what directed force has to offer. It is unlike anything else and offers great potential to master many opponents simultaneously. Naturally, the principals must be internalized in order to do so and this wil take years. In the meantime the health, serenity, feeling of well being, metabolic, and metaphysical benifits should, in and of themselves, make all practice worth your efforts. After all, this is a form of martial yoga, with all of the benifits of yoga.

[siufeifei]

Tai-Chi does not mean and has never meant "Supreme Ultimate Fist". That is a case of literal translation of a language that can not always be translated so.

[Hachidan]

That's new to me.

One of my Master's Masters was Ceng Man-ch'ing. He collaborated with Robert W. Smith for the landmark book, T'AI CHI: THE " SUPREME ULTIMATE" EXERCISE for HEALTH, SPORT, and SELF - DEFENSE.

ON PAGE 2 AND 3 IT STATES " The full and formal title is T'ai Chi Chuan the latter word meaning simply " fist " or " boxing." The term t'ai chi is derived from a concept of Chinese philosophy meaning "supreme ultimate." He goes on to indicate a little later that " T'ai - chi was named for the ultimate philosophical principal because its early proponents felt it expressed the ultimate physical principal."

So do I. Hence, " Supreme Ultimate Fist. "

Further, on a practical and personel level I have had hundreds of experiences of having had " The Fist" and the higher principals that it represents through all of T'ai Chi applied directly to my body. These were very controlled applications that allowed for my survival as well as my education. They left no doubt about the " Supreme Ultimate " nature of the art.

These applications were a gift from my master. Grand Master Jou Hwa was very loving and patient. I could not have comprehended the art had he not let me feel it, over and over, for the nine wonderful years of his formal instruction. His ability as a teacher and practitioner was beyond my the solid credentials supporting the various black belts that I maintained at the time. It was beyond imagination. It had to be felt. I was very fortunate. Exposure to him was and is a blessing.

May he push hands with The Immortals. I am confident that They will find him very challenging.

[JusticeZero]

May I refer you to the clip current in the forums (I'm sorry, I don't have time to find a reference), in which Drunken stylists are beaten pretty well by karate guys. Why? Because they insisted on "doing their style" rather than fighting....

I remember that clip, if it's the one that calls the Drunken stylist a Wing Chun artist.

The Drunken guy wasn't actually doing -bad- per se, but the fact that it was sparring wasn't helping them, and they lacked one crucial thing - they had no plan for how to move beyond the threat space of a lead leg snap kick. They would move in, get touched by this little extreme range toe flick from the next county, then break and have to do it again.

What else are they supposed to do if not what they are training? The rules favored the karateka. The Drunken stylists had no good strategy for how to deal with a technique that they do not train or use, and then were not able to use the limitations of the problem technique to bring the match into their field.

[JusticeZero]

It is not for no reason that T'ai Chi is referred to as The Supreme Ultimate Fist.

As I recall, "Supreme Ultimate" in this sence can also (and probably should be) translated as "Focused Tips Of The Pole Boxing" as "ultimate" in this case is very possibly being used in it's definition of "the end" rather than as the superlative that English has evolved to make it out to be.