I Am Sick Of So Many Things

[ckdstudent]

So the fact that someone can demonstrate that they have the technique for set moves, the co-ordination to perform them, and the stamina to keep them going for an hour shouldn't be used as part of their grading?

 

As for breaking, just a quick comment. We were always taught that it's mainly a self-confidence thing. The baord break has been used so long that its become one of the stereotypes of martial arts, so if people know that they can break a piece of wood with their techniques they feel more confident about them. Don't ask me why, they just do.

 

Now that I think about it we always used various strengths of plastic boards, so that it was always something of a challenge anyway.

 

[ This Message was edited by: ckdstudent on 2002-05-25 17:19 ]

[BlueDragon]

Wouldn't co-ordination, technique and stamina be most apparent during sparring instead of during the repetition of set moves?

[G95champ]

Bon

 

Let me try and answer you questions some more. When I was comming up the ranks myself I saw kata as a time to rest and nothing more than memorizing a bunch of moves. One day me and another student were joking with our sensei and insted of saying KIA we were saying kata. Meaning we wanted to do kata becasue it was hot and we were really tired. LOL. He proceeded not to let us. LOL

 

Anyhow point is I did not understand kata till I started teaching them. I still don't and never will understand everything about them but thats the fun of it. Again kata helps on timming, balacne, speed, etc. The moves can be used for so many differant things it opens your mind to differant mthods of attack or defense in a fight. If you want to freak someone out next time you spar do a sequance in a kata at them. They sort of freeze because it looks so graceful but at the same time your attacking them.

 

If you are training for a 15 round fight kata can help with endurance. I don't really know what point you need made. However like I pointed out I think you can seperate the true Martial Artist from the fighters by their practice of kata. No offense Bon.

 

 

[Bon]

hehe, no offense taken.. I can't say I agree with you entirely though... I don't believe you can judge someone whether they're a true martial artist on their kata. I think you can judge someone by how well they fight, afterall, that's what martial arts were designed for and what they should judge a martial artist on I believe.

 

I think this topic is a little hard to debate, because it seems to me most people argue the points of kata with inductive reasoning, while arguing against kata uses deductive reasonsing like practically everything else.

 

I don't think kata is for me, maybe if I get a really good kata teacher I'll understand it more. At this point, my own combinations come best when I'm just hitting the bag at random. Endurance I believe is best built up with areobic, anaerobic training and weights.. Modern methods are elite, I still think you're doing tradition for the sake of tradition.

 

Maybe you'll agree to a disagree with me though ? =)

 

 

[G95champ]

Gichin Funakoshi said karate consisted of 3 parts. 1 was basics, 2. was kata and 3. was sparring. Funaksoshi said sparring was the most important of the 3 and kata the scond most important. Im not saying that a blackblet should not be able to defend himself. I think that above all is the main requirment for a blackblet is to be able to protect themselves.

 

Howver I do think kata brings us to that point. You say you think you gain endurance by lifting weights and running. I will say what does muscle mass have to do with fighting?

 

Again if kata is done correctly you will get a great work out. Shotokan like most types of karate does a some tension kata for that reason.

 

IMO what seperates the good fighters from the rest of the class is their ability to react. You say you react best when just working on a bag. Kata teaches you to react out of repitation. The more you do a series of moves the more they become a reaction.

 

When people first developed kata they did it with some sort of blueprint in mind. The moves do serve a purpose to teach how certin moves flow and work in nice combos.

 

This is sort of where I think karate differs from the fighting arts like Kickboxing and Ju Jitsu. IMO karate students don't learn or become good fighters till they begin to understand kata after they advance to blackblet. In the fighting arts you learn to fight from day one and pick up a lot of tradition and stuff later on. Most karate schoold do not allow students to free spar until they have made a belt or 2.

 

A few years back I trained with a guy named Tony Mahon who trained under one of the Gracie brothers in Brazil. We agreed that I would teach him kata if he taught me how to grapple. The first night I tried to show him some kata and it was like teaching a 4 year old. I assumed he was just talking a good game. The next night we put the pads on and he proceeded to beat the snot out of me.

 

I have said many times all martial arts lead to the same place that the only differance is where you start.

 

As you said kata is a tradition. I am a history teacher and I like tradition. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it so Im going to do my best to keep the tradition alive.

 

 

[Bon]

Gichin Funakoshi said karate consisted of 3 parts. 1 was basics, 2. was kata and 3. was sparring. Funaksoshi said sparring was the most important of the 3 and kata the scond most important. Im not saying that a blackblet should not be able to defend himself. I think that above all is the main requirment for a blackblet is to be able to protect themselves.

 

I thought this was more a general argument about kata, not about what karate consisted of. I don't do karate, or a traditional art for that matter, so am I excused ?

Howver I do think kata brings us to that point. You say you think you gain endurance by lifting weights and running. I will say what does muscle mass have to do with fighting?

 

Apart from it making your hits stronger and being able to take more hits. Weight training if done properly, such as compound movements develops fast and explosive power. I don't think I'd really want this for a fight... do you ? ; ) Also, if you lift heavy weights with good form, you could do lighter weights a lot more times. Heavy weights == endurance in a fight as far as I'm concerned.

Again if kata is done correctly you will get a great work out. Shotokan like most types of karate does a some tension kata for that reason.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't give a good workout. Almost anything can give us a good workout if we want it to. You're getting sicked tracked and rambling incoherently now.

IMO what seperates the good fighters from the rest of the class is their ability to react. You say you react best when just working on a bag. Kata teaches you to react out of repitation. The more you do a series of moves the more they become a reaction.

 

Yes, repitition of technique does allow you to use it as second nature in a fight. But, I would rather drill one technique 1000 times, than drill 10 different techniques 100 times. I'd feel much more confident knowing I have one technique that is solid compared to 10 that are only okay at best.

When people first developed kata they did it with some sort of blueprint in mind. The moves do serve a purpose to teach how certin moves flow and work in nice combos.

 

Fair point, taken.

This is sort of where I think karate differs from the fighting arts like Kickboxing and Ju Jitsu. IMO karate students don't learn or become good fighters till they begin to understand kata after they advance to blackblet. In the fighting arts you learn to fight from day one and pick up a lot of tradition and stuff later on. Most karate schoold do not allow students to free spar until they have made a belt or 2.

 

The fact that jiu jitsu students and muay thai students are proficient within a year and can kick some serious ass if they want to doesn't show you modern methods are more productive and efficient, thus, traditional methods such as kata for the sake of tradition aren't as productive and effective ?

A few years back I trained with a guy named Tony Mahon who trained under one of the Gracie brothers in Brazil. We agreed that I would teach him kata if he taught me how to grapple. The first night I tried to show him some kata and it was like teaching a 4 year old. I assumed he was just talking a good game. The next night we put the pads on and he proceeded to beat the snot out of me.

 

That helps prove my point..

I have said many times all martial arts lead to the same place that the only differance is where you start.

 

I'd rather get to that 'place' as quick as possible, wouldn't you ? When I'm learning some new math, I want to learn and understand it as quickly as possible, I then do questions to check this. Techniques taught in class can correspond to the new math, and the questions can correspond to the sparring. Fair analogy ? I've a test on Tuesday, I started studying today (Sunday), I need to learn 4 topics within 2 days, I don't want to beat around the bush and fail my exam. So by the same token, would you want to beat around the bush with learning how to fight & end up getting severely bashed on the streets ?

As you said kata is a tradition. I am a history teacher and I like tradition. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it so Im going to do my best to keep the tradition alive.

 

History is nothing more than that. History is just history.. Dictionary.com defines it as 'A narrative of events; a story'. If a new technology that allows us to travel faster than the speed of light is created, should the scientists not use it because gravity assisted space flight is the way we got to the moon for the first time & it's history ? Absurd don't you think ? If that technology was ever created, so many theories regarding physics could then be tested such as Einstein's famous theory of special relativity. Do you think we'd forget gravity assisted space flight ? It would be used as a temporary means of space flight and a stepping stone. Kata is not unimportant, it was the best method to learn before, now there are better methods thanks to kata since it has been used as a stepping stone.

 

_________________

 

It takes sacrifice to be the best.

 

There are always two choices, two paths to take. One is easy. And its only reward is that it's easy.

 

[ This Message was edited by: Bon on 2002-05-26 03:06 ]

[ckdstudent]

Actually if faster than light travel is ever developed it'll simply break Einstein's theory, since according to relativity to travel faster than, or even equal to, light not only requires infinite energy but also provides you with infinite mass, or as close to as makes no difference.

 

As for the kata, it does teach you how to perform techniques in combination, shifting bodyweight and good technique. In sparring juniors often sacrifice most of these in order to get speed, as do most seniors. Same goes with guard, a lot of people in sparring drop their guard as they do techniques. So patterns are a chance to practice combinations of good techniques and get into good habits.

 

As for traditional styles taking years to learn to defend themselves I disagree completely, although my viewpoint on this may be coloured since I do not study a traditional martial art. Most people know how to perform basic self defense techniques (punch, kick, block) after the first few classes. We had someone in our school, never done martial arts before, not particularly fit, did two weeks worth of classes and got attacked. Using the same combination that they did in patterns (outwards block, rear inwards punch, front kick) they managed to persuade their attacker to stop and limp away. Of course, I'm not sure whether or not Choi would be classed as traditional.

 

 

[Bon]

Okay, that is a bad example and doesn't quite fit..

 

_________________

 

It takes sacrifice to be the best.

 

There are always two choices, two paths to take. One is easy. And its only reward is that it's easy.

 

[ This Message was edited by: Bon on 2002-05-26 04:04 ]

[G95champ]

Bon

 

Have you ever watched Star Wars LOL. Master Yoda says beware the quick and eaisy path they lead to the dark side of the force.

 

Luke Skywalker even asks Yoda once in the Dark side is stronger Yoda says no. Not strong quick and eaisy to come to you in a fight they are but not stronger.

 

LOL As I read your response to my last post that is what came to mind.

 

 

[G95champ]

Lets look at some of the things you said.

 

Does this excuse you. Well I assume you ment from my coment above about being a good martial artist. We break martial arts into 3 groups. The fighting arts which are Thai boxing, BJJ, Boxing, and any mix style for that reason. The second is the traditional arts from karate to kunf fu to TSD etc. these are styles that can be used for both fighting and exercise and mental development. We focus on the tradition, and history of our art as much as the physical development. The third is the sport arts. Judo, TKD, american kickboxing, wrestling, sumo, etc. More is put on winning competions than the tradtiton and history of the art. Based on your posts I would say you fall into the fighting arts and maybe the sport arts. Thats just how we break it down o. So if that excuses you your welcome. LOL.....

 

Weights builds power and enduracne kata does the same thing. What if you don't have the money to go to the gym, or dont have a dojo that has them in it. Just because we are in the 21th crentury dont mean some people still dont have electricy. BTW your next point made my point about kata. Anything you do and do hard will give you a workout.

 

Do you know Herschal Walker? He played RB in the NFL for 10 years or more. He NEVER lifted a weight in HS, College or the NFL. He did 1000 pushups, setups and ran 5 miles everyday along with a TKD workout. Weights dont make you better it just a means to get better like kata is.

 

You say you would rather have one great move over a dozen ok moves. I can't disagree with that line of thinking because I teach the same idea. You got to do what words. However I tell my students they better alwasy have a backup plan. Lets say you practice you spinning backfist 1000 times ont he heavy bag and you are really good with it. However the reason you get in a fight is becasue a dude slammed you hand in a car door? What are you left with now? If the spinning backfist is all you ever worked????

 

The point about Tony Mahon was that although he was by far the best figher I have ever faced he knew next to nothing about his art. He had a real hard time teaching me becasue all he could say was do this or do that. He could not explain why. They only way he taught me was by saying good if I did something ok or when I tapped I knew I screwed up.

 

Again you say you would want to get to a place as fast as possible. Lets say Im going on vacation. I drive for 10hrs to get there. I stay a few days then drive 10hrs home. When I get home I want to remember the countryside I pasted so If I ever go there agian I will know where to eat, go to the restroom, get gas, stop and see an attraction, etc. I belive the only way you can see the forest is to look at each tree. Many of us never see the forest becasue we are blinded by the trees.

 

If you want to talk Einstine Ill be happy to but I dont think Patrick will like us doing that on his karatefourms LOL. Great thing about Einstine is that he came up with all his theories and ideas but he himself could not drive a car becasue he did not understand how to. BTW Bore, Zilard, Oppenhiemer, and other have proven a lot of Einstiens theories incorrect. Mainly the theory on lightspeed. Because the faster you go the slower time goes by. Once you reach lightspeed you would be going so slow you could not burn the last bit of fuel needed to go past 299,999.99 km/s Thus to go faster than lightspeed is impossilbe.