TKD forms?

[Ottman]

It is the sine wave movement. When General Choi came up with it, it was based off of the idea that when you finished the move, you gathered power by coming up slightly, and then by "settling" into the move, you transfered all of your power forward and down, into the target.

Whenever I see it, I think it disrupts the flow of techniques. I think that many times over the years, the idea has been misinterpreted, and therefore misused, and misunderstood.

Sine wave movement is an interesting idea, and it does work if executed properly (I have broken bricks and boards using sine wave motion) but I do think that bushido man is dead on the money by saying that it has been misinterpreted and misunderstood.

Many TKD forms judges will score higher for the very exaggerated movement shown in the video, interpreting the motion as very powerful, which it is, but as bushido man said, this type of over-exaggerated motion does cut down on the fluidity, and beauty of the form, which are also criteria for judging (at least within USSSA style rules, which I believe are also used for UTA and some other orgs as well.)

The thing about sine wave motion, is that it is very easy to learn and use, but it also telegraphs everything, so if you aren't very subtle and quick with it it will give away your movement. It has been argued to me, by more than one, that this is the reason for all of the bouncing in TKD sparring to hide your intent, as Jack mentioned in an earlier post. After 12 years of TKD training I am still skeptical as to how effective this combination of movement really is. I have reserved this type of motion for defensive (forward leg) kicking, and for following up kicks without setting down my kicking foot. Anything else I use it for ends up with too much of a telegraph (for my liking.) Again, this is after 12 years of training in a style of TKD that uses sine wave motion. That doesn't mean I've mastered it, but perhaps it means I never will. I have been slowly adapting my martial arts to weed out the parts of TKD that don't compliment me well, and sine wave motion was one of the first things I got rid of. I now use it only when I need it, and that's just fine with me.

[bushido_man96]

Very nice, Ottman.

The funny thing about the Sine Wave motion is that I have found out everything I know about it through watching some of the vids that show up here, and by reading about them.

I have attended classes in 3 different TKD organizations, and spent more than 5 years with 2 of them, and neither one have ever done the Sine Wave movement in their forms.

I don't know if this is because there are those that don't understand it, or just don't like it.

[Ottman]

Very nice, Ottman.

The funny thing about the Sine Wave motion is that I have found out everything I know about it through watching some of the vids that show up here, and by reading about them.

I have attended classes in 3 different TKD organizations, and spent more than 5 years with 2 of them, and neither one have ever done the Sine Wave movement in their forms.

I don't know if this is because there are those that don't understand it, or just don't like it.

Could be both.

Sine wave motion has been downplayed in my school as well in recent years (mostly due to my efforts to de-emphasize it) and I think it's being phased out in most other schools too (at least in my area.)

We still teach it, but the term 'sine wave' is no longer used. The motion is just described and we tell our students that it can be used to generate extra power if needed, but we don't emphasize it or spend a lot of time on it anymore.

We never used this motion in forms, instead focusing more on accuracy, proper stances, and especially the fluidity of the movements. (I'm not sure why or how this ever crept its way into forms. That's always puzzled me.)

[DWx]

Hello,

We removed a post in error from this thread. It is quoted below. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks.

That Kind of Movement would be looked down upon in my school. This is what I hate about all these musical kata and the like. We have been taught that the body should not move up or down in our kata except in the rare exception(jumping kicks etc). Of course we are a traditional style who don't compete much, so we don't have to worry about what a judge thinks. Very silly yes.

I'm not sure what you mean by musical.

The kata in the video he showed was put to music. The people bounced to the music. The use of the sine wave is not bad, but exaggeration to the point of absurdity is just that absurd. We use our hips in our punches too but it doest have to look like a booty shake when you get good at it. It looks good to the beat, that video was dancing- JMO

O, it makes sense now...

[congai]

You're mistaken to think that the pattern was performed to music, it is actually not. If you notice the music continues nonstop throughout the whole video...

The ITF uses sine wave as a way to generate more power and to relax the body as you go from technique to technique. What you see in the video is a very emphasized sine wave, along with other stuff, since it's at a world competition...

[JWLuiza]

You're mistaken to think that the pattern was performed to music, it is actually not. If you notice the music continues nonstop throughout the whole video...

The ITF uses sine wave as a way to generate more power and to relax the body as you go from technique to technique. What you see in the video is a very emphasized sine wave, along with other stuff, since it's at a world competition...

So, how does an up and down movement (y axis) increase force on strikes in the horizontal plane (x axis)? I might buy sine wave motions for strikes that have a downward vector to the strike..... But for punches?

[bushido_man96]

You're mistaken to think that the pattern was performed to music, it is actually not. If you notice the music continues nonstop throughout the whole video...

The ITF uses sine wave as a way to generate more power and to relax the body as you go from technique to technique. What you see in the video is a very emphasized sine wave, along with other stuff, since it's at a world competition...

So, how does an up and down movement (y axis) increase force on strikes in the horizontal plane (x axis)? I might buy sine wave motions for strikes that have a downward vector to the strike..... But for punches?

I think I can shed some light on this. In reading the Fighter's Fact Book 2, one of the authors talks about a technique called the "gravity drop," (I think is what it was called ). What he did is basically went from being somewhat upright to dropping the weight forward and into the target (almost like dropping from ready position into a front stance), which would put the body weight, along with gravity, into the target.

It made sense when I read it, and thought that maybe that is what General Choi had in mind. I just don't think every technique would require its use, though. For example, doing a gravity drop into a block would not be as effective as it would be in a straight punch or elbow into the body. Try it with an elbow strike into the heavy bag, and see what you feel. Let me know if you need more technical info...I'll give it as best as I can.

[JWLuiza]

You're mistaken to think that the pattern was performed to music, it is actually not. If you notice the music continues nonstop throughout the whole video...

The ITF uses sine wave as a way to generate more power and to relax the body as you go from technique to technique. What you see in the video is a very emphasized sine wave, along with other stuff, since it's at a world competition...

So, how does an up and down movement (y axis) increase force on strikes in the horizontal plane (x axis)? I might buy sine wave motions for strikes that have a downward vector to the strike..... But for punches?

I think I can shed some light on this. In reading the Fighter's Fact Book 2, one of the authors talks about a technique called the "gravity drop," (I think is what it was called ). What he did is basically went from being somewhat upright to dropping the weight forward and into the target (almost like dropping from ready position into a front stance), which would put the body weight, along with gravity, into the target.

It made sense when I read it, and thought that maybe that is what General Choi had in mind. I just don't think every technique would require its use, though. For example, doing a gravity drop into a block would not be as effective as it would be in a straight punch or elbow into the body. Try it with an elbow strike into the heavy bag, and see what you feel. Let me know if you need more technical info...I'll give it as best as I can.

Thanks for the explanation. I was more asking from a physics viewpoint (since I teach college level physics for the MCAT). However, by putting the center of gravity forward, it sounds like the point of impact is further along the x-axis, so it isn't the y-axis drop propagating this "stronger" technique.

It is just physically impossible for any Force perpendicular to a striking surface to affect a strike... so thanks for clearing up where this might have come from.

[DWx]

I'm currently studying mechanical maths as part of my A-level. As part of my own sorta study and for revision I've been trying to apply everything I've learnt in mechanics and my understanding of biology to the MAs.

From what I can gather (and this may not be correct so please tell me JWLuiza or anyone else who does physics/maths cause I don't want to go into my exam and fail ):

The y-directional movement comes into play when dealing with any technique moving in the vertical direction. This can be either only in the y-axis or in any other motion involving some aspect of the y component. The gravitational potential energy of the mass increas the higher up you go as gravity has a longer time to accelerate the particle. But you don't wanna go too high when fighting because you also raise your centre of gravity making it easier to push you over!

However the vertical movement does not affect any linear horizontal motion as it is perpendicular to the forces acting. This is just my own theory but perhaps sine-wave is used on all techniques to make forms and such like look more artistic. If one were to use sine wave on only half of the techniques, the forms wouldn't look as pretty. But...

...by looking at various techniques from different systems, I have seen few techniques that travel completely horizontal. Because of the nature of the human anatomy, our joints make it impossible to load a limb with tension and relese it in a horizontal line. Take the punch for example. Whichever way you do it the arm must bend at the elbow. The elbow will always bend downwards or your arm will travel in a curve or arc (unless you manage to retract into your own arm like a spring ). ...Without using a pic or video this is gonna be hard to describe so bare with me, oh and I'm only guessing here... The raising up of the mass and then dropping it from above the technique sorta counteracts the upward motion of the arm??? Whether I'm right or wrong in the punch senario, sine wave increases the mass being dropped from above .

My understanding is it is easier for the human body to accelerate forward when dropping down than it is to project itself straight forward from a fixed height due to being able to contract and extend the muscles. Continuous sine wave (as opposed to stopping at the top of the movemnt) shifts 100% of the weight onto the forward leg easily in order for us to accelerate our bodies forward. The mass also seems to fall more onto the technique increasing the resultant force.

Also, as TKD was meant to be as a form of self defense, sine wave models how the human body moves. If you watch yourself in a mirror, the body rises and falls with each step. Oh, and pedometers work by counting the number of rises and falls. A sine-wave taught TKD person should be able to naturally execute a technique without conveying to an agressor any sort of rigidity as their technique should fit in with natural walking/stepping.

I don't know enough yet but I'm also looking into how water waves create the force that they do. As seen in the Tsunami and other disasters relating to water, waves can create massive amounts of kinetic energy and I intend to try and research this more.

I've explained sine wave as I understand it so if anyone can pick out flaws in my theory I would be grateful.

[JWLuiza]

Dwx,

Uh.... Maybe...?

I guess we'd have to do a controlled experiment or get a kinesiologist in here. Thanks for your .02$ though.