Expectations of a martial artist.

[gzk]

Legally, I don't think the law discriminates age-wise as to who poses an imminent threat.

It would really depend on intent, and severity level. As Kez mentioned, there are som 14 year olds that are quite well developed, and could cause some bodily harm, if they wanted to. However, if you have little 10 year olds, the severity level may change somewhat.

Exactly. A tiny 14 year old is unlikely to be an imminent threat if unarmed, a freakishly huge 10 year old might be. A small 10 year old with a knife raised and arm cocked to stab might be, a large 14 year old with a knife almost certainly is.

Which is to say it really has nothing to do with age, but the reasonable perception of an imminent threat.

And Kez is also right that you can only use a minimum of force - a minimum of force to remove the threat. Usually lateral vascular restraint - the court-friendly term for switching 'em off, choking 'em out - would suffice, but I can't wait 8 seconds if he has a knife, one of those arm joints has to go. You do what you need to, no more and no less.

[Shotokan-kez]

Yeah this is what i was thinking. It's so sad that kids can behave that way. I was on the bus the other day on my way to karate and there was a 12 year old girl on the bus swearing and shouting obscenities. The driver wanted her off and she wouldn't go, so the driver turned off her engine and called the police. Basically we were meant to sit on the bus and wait, and listen to that all the while being late to where we were going. A man behind me tried to get her off by grabbing her arms...and i though "be careful mate you could get in trouble". In the end i turned round and said.."will you just get off the bus, we all have places to go!". Then of course because i said that the other passengers got their two cents in and that got her off.

I'm so glad she didnt try anything with me, or get violent with me after saying that to her because i would have defended myself and then maybe been arrested. This is the times when i think about limitations and and 'crossing the line' as far as using your martial arts training goes.

[lordtariel]

Hey, if you need to defend yourself, you defend yourself. Deal with the ramifications afterwards. I'd rather be worried about being brought up on assault charges than dealing with being seriously injured or just plain dead. Honestly though, with these kids coming in and causing problems, you'll have plenty of witnesses that could say they've been being unruly in case you need to deal with the law.

[cross]

I suppose i'm starting this thread as it got me thinking over a few things after my thread about my lad being beat up. It drives me mad when i'm out drinking with friends because they always say things like "well it'll be okay if anyone starts any trouble because kez is out with us". Yes i know i should be able to do something but in all fairness i just don't know how i would react.

That all comes down to how you train. If your school has time set aside for "self defence training", look at what your learning during that time and think about how it compares to the reality of a violent situation.

When you work defense against something like a one double arm lapel grab how does it happen?

Does your partner grab you with no force and stand there without saying or doing anything else while you perform a series of techniques that assume alot about how he/she will react to each part of the sequence?

or..

Does your partner grab you forcefully enough to make you really feel uncomfortable right off the bat while screaming at you and trying to push you up against a wall to get you to comply, while you use simple, reflexive movements to deal with him/her and adapt to the situation and base your next technique off the position you find yourself in and how your opponent has reacted to your last movement?

I know which one is a better preperation for a realistic attack and is still safe enough to train. Being able to do a technique against a compliant person is all well and good and a great way to express your art, but it doesnt prepare you for how you will be attacked by the guy/girl out the front of your club who doesnt care what you do or dont know.

If your training doesnt replicate what you would feel and experience for real, then ofcourse you will be unsure of yourself and wont know how to react.

Often people expect martial artists, particularly blackbelts, to have superhuman powers and insane fighting skills. Most of the time they are ignorant of what MAs really are.

Most of the time its the martial artists themselves who act like they are great fighters and tell their students that this is self defence and doing these techniques will make you great at self defence. Until one gets beat up or they realise their training doesnt work. Then they take a more humble approach and blame the public for not knowing what martial arts really is.

You could clinch up with them or take them to the ground. Grappling gives you the luxury of controlling your opponent without pounding on him.

The problem with this is that traditional arts like shotokan rarely do this kind of training. Its all kick punch block, maybe some footsweeps.

[jaymac]

In the beginning of my training in Shotokan, I thought some of the strict rules my instructor had were over the top. As the years have past and talking to others and hearing stories like kez is discussing, I have come to respect my instructors opinions in regards to training and being a Martial Artist. He tells new students and all students, "do not brag or talk out loud about being a Martial Artist, it may cause you problems down the road when someone tries to test your ability." He tells us, if someone tries to approach us in school or work place about our abilities, invite them to take a few classes and try it out themselves. He does not allow classes to be viewed by onlookers. The students are not able to see outside of the dojo, and little kids unable to see mom or dad. The training area is enclosed and only training students are allowed entry. Mom, dad, and others can view the training from a private area on t.v. All training areas are on camera. At the end of children's classes, a black belt student supervises the dismissal of all the kids, so potenitial harrassers outside are deterred.

[Shotokan-kez]

I really like that idea Jaymac, that it's all supervised like that, only students allowed in is great. Unfortunatly anyone can walk in ours, but i think sensei doesnt mind to much in case they can be encouraged to train. I'm not overly worried about the kids that come in and shout stuff, nothing has ever happened so far, and afterall i do feel that they are just 'loud mouths' with no action. I was just a topic i thought about.

I totally agree with you Jaymac, about boasting about Martial arts. I hardly tell anyone because i would be worried it could land me in trouble, however i guess it could also be a detterent. What i am concerned about is that when i take my black belt grading i don't think i'll be able to keep it to myself! Lol

[jaymac]

Kez, you don't have to keep getting a black belt to yourself. Achieving BB is a great honor. I am talking about those individuals who show moves outside of class to onlookers just to show off, or none stop talk about their MA training to everyone. They are the ones who end up being tested by others who want to prove an inability to defend oneself.

[Knuckle Dragger]

I have two suggestions for the kids causing a disturbance at the training hall. First the instructor can invite them to spar with him/herself and embarrass them or with a top student. Don't hurt to bad just embarrass them. If this is not an option then see if a Police Officer can come by occassionally to your class. In most cases this will stop almost all disruptive activity.

[Sohan]

There's a reason why locks were invented for doors. If your dojo is having a problem with unwanted guests, perhaps it you could install an entry system that operates by code-entry for members. Wouldn't be too big a deal to set up, and you could post a flier at the door for prospective students that invites them to call for an appointment.

With respect,

Sohan

[Mrt333]

Good post Kez, once again you've really made me think!

I guess i'd just like to share my little experience of martial arts. It's kinda late here and I've had a few beers so forgive me if i go on a bit .... I know its not going to be the same for everybody but here goes....

The thing I have got out of my training is that I simply do not care anymore whether or not i can defend myself. I just don't think about it. I guess i've just seen so many people who look like nothing special that could completely anihilate me that i just don;t think about it anymore.

I really love that feeling! So many guys (and gals) are basically hung-up about whether or not they are tough or not. Karate has given me the confidence not to worry about it. And the thing i find is that if you have no chip on your shoulder, nobody tends to try and start trouble with you.

I'm talking from a blokes perspective here, but if when you meet another guy no part of you is thinking 'could i knock this guy out?' you can meet some really amzing people when you least expect it!

I guess what i am saying is all my friends have 'expectations of a martial artist' but fingers crossed they will never ever find out whether or not i live up to them

Cheers

Dave