My son got into a fight at school!

[Philosophical One]

This is such an emotive topic - the bullying of your son makes me feel really angry for him and you.

I really hope the school can resolve this issue to your son's and to your satisfaction. Please make sure that the bullying behaviour is RESOLVED and not just pushed "underground" lots of kids are being bullied online now and exclusion can be every bit as damaging... I think if it was my son I would get him some counselling and change his school.

I am quite surprised by the title of this thread "My son got into a fight at school" I was expecting to read a post about a fight... but it sounds like really brutal bullying - a mob attack even.

I'm really glad you are going to tell your Sensei about the attack - my partners students are often seeking answers to their bullying problems - your Sensei should be able to offer support to both of you. Most people have experienced bullying and hopefully your Karate club will offer you the support you need right now.

I know you are considering allowing your son to take a break from Karate because he says he wants to - but loss of interest in current activities can be a sign of depression - so I'm not sure if that's such a good idea...

Make sure your son knows that none of this is his fault - no matter what he has said or done and that no matter what there is always someone he can confide in and that these sorts of things happen to everyone.

My sincere best wishes

Philosophical One

[cross]

I'd be right with you on all your points if we were talking about a teenager or an adult here. I guess my point is just that I don't feel it's necessarily good for a kid of 9 to be thinking in this way.

I see where you are coming from and agree in part. But at the same time its important to remember that in only a few years ryan will be a teenager and soon after he'll be an adult. Although he is young that doesnt mean he wont be a victim or be attacked.

Most honest karate instructors (that I've met, anyway) would admit that really karate only starts being genuinely effective for self-defence from 1st/2nd Dan upwards anyway, so its much too soon for him to be worrying about that. IMO anyway...

Thats something i cant swallow. A teacher telling you that "you wont be able to defend yourself until your a blackbelt, or when you reach black belt then you start to learn"... That all sounds very nice, but what do you do if you get attacked before then? Tell the attack to come back when your a blackbelt or when you learn to defend yourself? Ryan has already been attacked once, to say that he shouldnt worry about weather his karate works or not until he reaches blackbelt doesnt help him deal with the possibility of being attacked again in the not to distant future.

To be honest, effective self defence can be taught in a matter of hours, if you approach it correctly. It doesnt take years. learning to master the art of karate might, but self defence doesnt.

[bushido_man96]

Reffering to a post made earlier. Ryan is a good kid and he is taught that violence is bad, and in the past i have always said to him. 'You can't hit people it's wrong'. But after this incident i have told him he has my permission to hit, but ONLY in self defence and they must hit him first.

I can understand what you are trying to get across here, Kerry, but I don't quite agree with it. Basically, in Ryan's mind, you are saying "If you get hit, then you can defend yourself." In a sense, he is already being set up for another loss. Most kids are afraid of being hit in the first place. Therefore, he is still going to be disadvantaged.

Most honest karate instructors (that I've met, anyway) would admit that really karate only starts being genuinely effective for self-defence from 1st/2nd Dan upwards anyway, so its much too soon for him to be worrying about that. IMO anyway...

Thats something i cant swallow. A teacher telling you that "you wont be able to defend yourself until your a blackbelt, or when you reach black belt then you start to learn"... That all sounds very nice, but what do you do if you get attacked before then? Tell the attack to come back when your a blackbelt or when you learn to defend yourself? Ryan has already been attacked once, to say that he shouldnt worry about weather his karate works or not until he reaches blackbelt doesnt help him deal with the possibility of being attacked again in the not to distant future.

To be honest, effective self defence can be taught in a matter of hours, if you approach it correctly. It doesnt take years. learning to master the art of karate might, but self defence doesnt.

I tend to agree with cross on this matter. These bullies were able to successfully attack Ryan with no experience, and even though there were two of them, the mentality of one could have been the same. There is no reason that I can see that someone learning Karate could not learn to be able to defend themselves before spending a year in study.

This is the arguement that the RBSD instructors constantly make against studying styles like Karate, TKD, etc.

[gzk]

I understand why you would tell him not to throw the first strike, but I'm not sure I'd agree. If he lets the bully throw the first strike and gets knocked down, which is a real possibility, he could be literally or effectively out before he engages his training, and that's too late. All the axe kicks, hook kicks and katas won't help him if he's allowed himself to get pinned by someone much bigger and stronger.

Obviously I don't know what he's taught or what the sensei might be willing to teach him if asked, but what I've been trained to do (in a course designed for adults) is to see the warning signs - aggressive language, "big-dogging", ie: chest and chin out, showing who the bigger dog is, and respond by creating a "fence" with the hands, not a guard or anything aggressive, just a way of indicating where one's personal space is, if the attacker hits that once, back away and try to talk him out of it, if he hits it again, ask a question while subtly "loading up" the dominant side, then when his brain is engaged to deal with the question, smash him and don't stop until the threat is removed.

It might be worth asking the school what he's allowed to do in self defence and if they have specific rules about what situations he's allowed to do that in. I would be surprised if they tell you he has to let the bully strike first if he's being threatened.

[Elky]

It might be worth asking the school what he's allowed to do in self defence and if they have specific rules about what situations he's allowed to do that in. I would be surprised if they tell you he has to let the bully strike first if he's being threatened.

I think you might be underestimating how stupid schools are when it comes to bullying. Their rules are likely to say that his only permissable course of action is to allow himself to be beaten up and then lodge a complaint with his teacher who may decide to chat with the offenders about how it's important to have respect for your fellow pupils.

Most schools (as far as I know) have "no violence" rules which do not distinguish between the instigator and the defender.

[cross]

I think you might be underestimating how stupid schools are when it comes to bullying. Their rules are likely to say that his only permissable course of action is to allow himself to be beaten up and then lodge a complaint with his teacher who may decide to chat with the offenders about how it's important to have respect for your fellow pupils.

Most schools (as far as I know) have "no violence" rules which do not distinguish between the instigator and the defender.

I agree. A school i used to attend had a policy that if you were ever involved in a situation, self defence or otherwise, you would be suspended from training for 1 month minimum. Even if you were protecting yourself. What a joke.

A few people have suggested to talk to the instructor and see if some things can be added to training. That to me seems like people are trying to make karate fit every situation and be good for every aspect of your life. Sure, its great for dicipline, making friends, learning an art etc. But if you havnt been learning effective self defence up to this point, dont expect much to change in the near future.

[Shotokan-kez]

Well yeah, this is just it! They are just always told to tell the teacher, yet there have been many times when kids have gone to teachers with similar things and they have brushed it aside. And the trouble is, it's a no win situation, if he throws the first punch/strike he would be in even deeper trouble, of course i would defend him 100% if that happened.

I do feel that Ryan needs to get 'harder', he is very wimpy and a little weak in the fighting department. I think if he just showed a little toughness then it will be better for him, i don't know.

As it happens things have quietened down in school and they are all okay again, like i say i have a meeting with the teachers and head next week so i will talk about it with them also.

Thanks for all your advice and support guys!

Kez x

[Elky]

I think you might be underestimating how stupid schools are when it comes to bullying. Their rules are likely to say that his only permissable course of action is to allow himself to be beaten up and then lodge a complaint with his teacher who may decide to chat with the offenders about how it's important to have respect for your fellow pupils.

Most schools (as far as I know) have "no violence" rules which do not distinguish between the instigator and the defender.

I agree. A school i used to attend had a policy that if you were ever involved in a situation, self defence or otherwise, you would be suspended from training for 1 month minimum. Even if you were protecting yourself. What a joke.

A few people have suggested to talk to the instructor and see if some things can be added to training. That to me seems like people are trying to make karate fit every situation and be good for every aspect of your life. Sure, its great for dicipline, making friends, learning an art etc. But if you havnt been learning effective self defence up to this point, dont expect much to change in the near future.

I was talking about his academic school, not his karate club

[cathal]

Senseis are amazing at helping to bolster self confidence.

[cross]

I was talking about his academic school, not his karate club

Ah, my mistake.