My son got into a fight at school!

[bushido_man96]

Good points, Elky. I had not thought of that.

I think it is important for Ryan to know that he will not be in trouble with you, Kerry, regardless of whether or not his actions get him in trouble with the school.

[Andrew_Patton]

Therein lies the problem - if he's essentially a good kid he won't want to fight even if he should because, as a kid, you're told constantly that fighting is wrong.

Exactly, you need to define that fighting isn't wrong in itself, picking a fight on the other hand is the issue you need to quench.

When I was in grade school/middle school (before zero tollerance mind you) my parents told me only two things I'd better not 1) start the fight (throw the first punch, etc.) and 2) get myself hurt; or I'd be facing consequences when I got home, and to be honest, I think once in a great while, when a bully is doing to much of their 'job' they need to get their up 'n comings.

And, to be honest, bullying (verbal or physical) is a horrible violence that I remember school staff not taking care of in the least, oh yes, those responsible didn't get to go on recess once in a while, sat in the principals office, had 'special' privaledges taken away, or had to sit w/ the principal during lunch, but their nature took over within a week of being off punishment, and they were back at it. There really doesn't seem to be any good "non-violent" solution that sticks with bullies.

[masterintraining]

okay i am 15 and i i know xactly how he feels, after training so hard for so long and then beaten like that it can damage his confidence in himself extremely. it has happended to me, it has happended to kids i know, i know some people who completly gave up own martial arts once they lost a fight.but u have to first know and analyze some things about the situation.

1.) he was out numberd it was 2 against one and, neather of them were fighting fair. and from what u said in the message he did not even try to use his martial arts, to defend himself with, so he must relize that he has to use it in order for it to work in the first place.

2.) my self -confindence has been damaged from loosinf a fight, or even doing bad in sparring before. heck i was a little unsure of myself after some kid wrestled me to the ground a couple of days ago, but the way i gt my mind out of the gutter was by thinking of everything u did and did not do in the situation. i also did not try to use my training cuss i really did not feel that threatend, 2 i got low to the ground, but i did not try to pick him up, and i sorta gave up after a certain point,and 3 i did not even try using my martial arts training in the first place.( much like u said ur son did) . it is alot easier to make urself feel better bout what u did after its over, and u can think about everything that happended like i just showed u.

3.) this next thing canbe the most cruial thing that can make someone who has lost a fight feel good about themself again. SPARR. anytime i have ever felt a little unsure of myself i try and find someone to sparr, because it can restor confindence dramatically, since it deals with actual combat, it helps prepare for next encounters,( cus trust me when someone thinks they can get over own u, or beat u in something they will try and do it as much as possible, and sparring is best way to prepare( keep in mind u must do actually contact, no point sparring so that u acuralty simulate a situation.) and self-defence sitations such as how to get out of head locks or chokes, like the boys put him in. but one more thing to remember, let him work himself through some things, remember time heals all wounds.

[cross]

I think you (and your son) should be very wary of thinking of this in terms of 'was his Karate effective?', and certainly i wouldn't agree with the idea that you should now be looking for a 'more effective' art. This would merely encourage him to think about MA more and more in terms actual fighting and violence - he's a very young lad and the last thing this world needs is young kids worrying about whether or not they're good street fighters.

Seeking more effective training methods isnt about becoming a street fighter, its about this young man being confident in his own mind when he questions "if i got attacked again, would i be able to deal with it?" If the answer is no, then something is lacking in terms of training.

The simple fact is, even us 'grown-up' martial artists, if we are honest, know that there are situations which no amount of training will get you out of - it's not about the art, its about the reality, and your son got attacked by a bunch of lads and its unrealistic to think that any amount of training, in any particular art, would have got him out of that particular situation. To tell him otherwise is to give him false hope.

People often come to the conclusion that if they cant do it themselves, or if they dont train and prepare for it, then it cant be done. Its very possible to defend against multiple attacks. No one says its going to be easy(having to defend yourself against one person isnt a walk in the park) or that you will walk away without at least some damage, but in my opinion, preparing for it and training to deal with it is a far better response than to assume its impossible and give up.

What happens if next time the kids are bigger, meaner, have weapons, or any combination of those, should he just give up and wait for them to stop beating on him so he can leave? To suggest that its impossible to deal with would be far worse then giving him false hope, it would make him feel competely helpless.

[Andrew_Patton]

Its very possible to defend against multiple attacks. No one says its going to be easy(having to defend yourself against one person isnt a walk in the park) or that you will walk away without at least some damage, but in my opinion, preparing for it and training to deal with it is a far better response than to assume its impossible and give up.

I've done just that twice in schoolyard fights, defending against multiple attackers, even just using your art of choice comes down to confidence and the ability to act, your instructor should be working on that first and foremost when it comes to self-defense.

[Shotokan-kez]

Wow so many replies. Firstly we have to remember Ryan is only 9 years old, is he really expected to deal with this kind of situation effectively and properly? It's just like kids in the dojo, they fool around and treat their training as a bit of fun, and don't actually consider that they may actually be in a real fight some day and have to use his karate. Secondly, yes there were two particular boys that were the main instigators, but there was a circle of kids around him and they were also having the occasional kick.

Reffering to a post made earlier. Ryan is a good kid and he is taught that violence is bad, and in the past i have always said to him. 'You can't hit people it's wrong'. But after this incident i have told him he has my permission to hit, but ONLY in self defence and they must hit him first.

On the other hand we have his father who he visits once a week and he has told Ryan to go in to school and beat them all up! I totally disagree with this, he cannot go and beat them up for no good reason. But is there really a good reason to go beating anyone up?? But then i know Ryan and i know he just wouldn't do that, he isn't like that, and no he doesnt have any kind of fighting spirit, he doesn't like it because he is sensitive and kind and is a clever lad.

What annoyed me a lot also is that when the teacher called me she wouldn't give me any names of the kids involved. (although she did say that even the kids that were 'egging' the bullies on were repremanded).

Ryan has told me that things have calmed down since the incident and they have all kept away from him. I have a meeting in school nect week so i will definatly bring up the matter with the head. I can also visit the school at lunch time if i wanted to watch them all in the playground.

I won't be taking Ryan out of training, what i will do is ask him if he's still happy taking karate and would he like to continue with his training. Maybe a short break would be in order and then see how he feels about it. When im back in training i will be having words with the sensei because i don't like to see Ryan getting told off all the time, i think it's something sensei needs to know.

[cross]

Firstly we have to remember Ryan is only 9 years old, is he really expected to deal with this kind of situation effectively and properly?

I dont think he is expected to, but that doesnt mean he cant. You have said a number of times how clever, intelligent etc he is.. i beleive in giving credit where credits due, which leads me to beleive that if this clever young man is faced with a couple of idiots trying to attack and bully him then he would be able to deal with it very effectively, using his brain more than any physical action, if he is taught how and practices it, like any other skill he would hope to obtain.

[lordtariel]

You're son's involved in this, you have a right to know who was involved. Who are you talking to about this? If you feel this is being handled poorly, you may want to go one step up and talk to the superintendent of the school district you're in. Explain what happened and how you think the school isn't doing anything about it. Just a quick question, were these kids older or were they 9 as well?

I'd also consider going to the police and pressing charges depending on the severity of the attack. Grabbing a kid by the throat and swinging him around isn't cool. If an adult did that it'd probably be considered aggravated assault. A visit from the police might convince the parents of those kids that they may want to keep their kids in line or scare the kids into behaving a bit.

[Andrew_Patton]

Firstly we have to remember Ryan is only 9 years old, is he really expected to deal with this kind of situation effectively and properly?

I dont think he is expected to, but that doesnt mean he cant. You have said a number of times how clever, intelligent etc he is.. i beleive in giving credit where credits due, which leads me to beleive that if this clever young man is faced with a couple of idiots trying to attack and bully him then he would be able to deal with it very effectively, using his brain more than any physical action, if he is taught how and practices it, like any other skill he would hope to obtain.

Exactly, I would also like to add, that age in Martial arts shouldn't matter to much, if Ryan holds a certain grade that's equal to an adult, shouldn't he be trained in how to keep his composure, walk away, talk his way out, or make a statement that he's not gonna be bullied (in any other way, physically or verbally)

Also, I'd take matters up with the superintendent, then if that does nothing, up with the school district, and just keep pressing them. The way 'bullies' are handled in schools is just a joke. What's with the slaps on the wrists, and the "boys will be boys" attitudes, it's a common problem, with consequences that last well out of childhood. The authority figures should be taking it as seriously as they can.

[Mrt333]

its about this young man being confident in his own mind when he questions "if i got attacked again, would i be able to deal with it?" If the answer is no, then something is lacking in terms of training.

I'd be right with you on all your points if we were talking about a teenager or an adult here. I guess my point is just that I don't feel it's necessarily good for a kid of 9 to be thinking in this way.

Maybe its more important for him to know that it happens to everyone from time to time, it doesn't mean he's a wimp, and it doesn't mean his karate is a waste of time. Most honest karate instructors (that I've met, anyway) would admit that really karate only starts being genuinely effective for self-defence from 1st/2nd Dan upwards anyway, so its much too soon for him to be worrying about that. IMO anyway...

Anyway, Kez certainly has plenty of material to go at in this post!

Cheers

Dave