My son got into a fight at school!

[cross]

Hey Kez,

Thanks for sharing this story, i certainly feel for you and your son. No one should be subjected to that kind of treatment and i can imagine it would be equally hard for yourself to know that this kind of thing has happened to a loved one.

I agree with alot of the advice so far, but if i can just touch on the "should he keep training" aspect.... I realise not everyone does martial arts with the direct goal of self defence, but it seems clear that in your sons eyes karate equals self defence (otherwise i dont think this situation would have effected his training the way it has). This may be a little bit hard to swallow, but ill just tell it how i see it...

If your son did nothing to attempt to defend himself(frooze up perhaps, or was just far to intimidated) and you feel that you need to speak with your sensei so he can incude some more self defence techniques and awareness stuff for kids AFTER the situation has happened, then its a little 2 late in my opinion. If i was in your shoes i would really be questioning what kind of training i was recieving and if its the right thing for your goals. Your son is already a victim, his confidence has been lowered significantly by the attack... So what happens next time? Will he be prepared, or will you both look back and wonder what you could have done, or what new techniques you can learn to avoid a situation thats already been and gone?

I hope this post doesnt seem like an attack at you or your son, just some things to think about.

best wishes,

Cross.

[Shotokan-kez]

Thanks everyone for the brilliant comments. Unfortunatly the kids won't be suspended, although they do come down hard on bullies i don't know exactly how hard. Ryan has said that he has made friends with the boys in question, but they do keep away from each other.

The things is it's still bothering me loads, all that keeps going through my mind is that this happened on school grounds, where were the midday staff? And why was it left to get that far? Ryan says he did complain to a dinner lady and she just said 'keep away from them'.

Ryan always tries to do the right thing in school, he rarely gets into trouble and he's in the top set for every subject. I think that may be why they 'target' him sometimes.

Hiya Cross, i do kinda see where your coming from but im not sure i completely understand. Would'nt continuing his training help his confidence and improve things eventually? Or are you saying his karate training is a waste of time, because it isnt working for him? He did try to fight back, but to be honest i think i would be very intimidated if i was in that situation.

[cross]

Hiya Cross, i do kinda see where your coming from but im not sure i completely understand. Would'nt continuing his training help his confidence and improve things eventually? Or are you saying his karate training is a waste of time, because it isnt working for him? He did try to fight back, but to be honest i think i would be very intimidated if i was in that situation.

Continuing training might improve things, but what have the benifits been upto this point? And how long will it be until he gains some skills he can apply?

Im guessing your son had confidence previous to the attack, was doing well in training etc... Yet he couldnt do a great deal to save himself when it really mattered.

Im not saying his training is a waste of time, has you would be aware there are many benifits to training other than self defence skills, but if that is what your after then there may be something more suitable for him to be doing.

I agree intimidation is a large factor in self defense situations and in your sons situation in particular. I have a question for you that relates to this:

How many times in training has your son been forced to deal with a situation similar to the one he faced at school? How many times has he taken part in a scenario from start to finish including the verbal onslaught followed by realistic aggression towards him leading to physical attack? How many times has the scenario been played out in class with all parties displaying real energy? And dont limit this to your son, how many times have you been placed in situations during training that you would most likely be faced with in real life? If these things arnt addressed in training and you cant deal with it under controlled circumstances, then ofcourse it will be intimidating and you will have no idea how to deal with it other than sitting there getting beat on. Start working the situations and feel the energy in training then all of a sudden the confidence you have is real and the intimidation isnt something new.

Just some things to consider.

[Mrt333]

Hey Kez

Like everyone here, sorry to hear about this happening to your son...

Would like to offer a 'second opinion' in relation to Cross's post (no disrespect intended, Cross, of course!).

I think you (and your son) should be very wary of thinking of this in terms of 'was his Karate effective?', and certainly i wouldn't agree with the idea that you should now be looking for a 'more effective' art. This would merely encourage him to think about MA more and more in terms actual fighting and violence - he's a very young lad and the last thing this world needs is young kids worrying about whether or not they're good street fighters.

The simple fact is, even us 'grown-up' martial artists, if we are honest, know that there are situations which no amount of training will get you out of - it's not about the art, its about the reality, and your son got attacked by a bunch of lads and its unrealistic to think that any amount of training, in any particular art, would have got him out of that particular situation. To tell him otherwise is to give him false hope.

Agree with all those who say talk to his sensei. If the guy has a heart he will tell your son a story about a time when HE got beaten up, and your son will understand that a) it happens to the best of us sometimes and b) it didn't stop his sensei going on to be a great martial artist (and probably more than capable of defending himself when push has come to shove again!!).

Good luck - hopefully in a few months time you'll both look back and see a bad moment that led on to a load of positives!!

Cheers

Dave

[username8517]

Im guessing your son had confidence previous to the attack, was doing well in training etc... Yet he couldnt do a great deal to save himself when it really mattered.

Im not saying his training is a waste of time, has you would be aware there are many benifits to training other than self defence skills, but if that is what your after then there may be something more suitable for him to be doing.

I agree intimidation is a large factor in self defense situations and in your sons situation in particular. I have a question for you that relates to this:

How many times in training has your son been forced to deal with a situation similar to the one he faced at school? How many times has he taken part in a scenario from start to finish including the verbal onslaught followed by realistic aggression towards him leading to physical attack? How many times has the scenario been played out in class with all parties displaying real energy? And dont limit this to your son, how many times have you been placed in situations during training that you would most likely be faced with in real life? If these things arnt addressed in training and you cant deal with it under controlled circumstances, then ofcourse it will be intimidating and you will have no idea how to deal with it other than sitting there getting beat on. Start working the situations and feel the energy in training then all of a sudden the confidence you have is real and the intimidation isnt something new.

But you'll have to remember that it was a 2v1 situation. Even someone with decent martial arts skills will have difficulty fending off two attackers at once.

But I think the point cross is trying to make is something I agree with--for martial arts to be an effective tool for self-defense you have to be trained in other aspects of self-defense situations. This covers everything from conflict awareness, avoidence, violence descelation, and so on. Simply giving someone technique with no knowledge of how and when to use it will create instances where the victim will feel overwhelmed with stress and have their brain basically shut down and rely on subconscious instints for survival.

For example, you wouldn't take a college class, only read the first couple chapters of the book, and walk into the final exam expecting to pass it with ease. Or to put the scenario in a teacher/student relationship--if you were teaching someone how to farm, you simply wouldn't give them the tools and machinery they need and send them on their way not mention the best harvest times, what kind of damage they can expect to their crops from insects, etc.

Perhaps when you do speak with your sensei, you see if he/she can incorporate more of this awareness and avoidence tactics into class.

[Andrew_Patton]

How many times in training has your son been forced to deal with a situation similar to the one he faced at school? How many times has he taken part in a scenario from start to finish including the verbal onslaught followed by realistic aggression towards him leading to physical attack? How many times has the scenario been played out in class with all parties displaying real energy? And dont limit this to your son, how many times have you been placed in situations during training that you would most likely be faced with in real life? If these things arnt addressed in training and you cant deal with it under controlled circumstances, then ofcourse it will be intimidating and you will have no idea how to deal with it other than sitting there getting beat on. Start working the situations and feel the energy in training then all of a sudden the confidence you have is real and the intimidation isnt something new.

Very, very good points, I just wish to add, that I, personally have been in a number of scuffles when I was in school (victim of bullies and all, felt I was forced to defend myself on a few occasions) and 2 v 1 while not a good situation to be in is managable if you learn how to handle yourself, personally it's not a situation I'd ever want to put myself into, but with the proper training, and luck it's doable.

In my own case, I don't remember exactly what happened, it was a two on one situation in one instance, but I couldn't tell you what happened, I can just really remember being in the principals office, the principal chuckling about how they chose to take on the meekest kid in school and they both ended up with black eyes, bruises and scrapes. I guess I'd have to say, the problem is with how the instructor is teaching, not what. In a self-defense situation you have to learn to teach someone how to boost their confidence and believe in what they've been taught, you can have the best teacher's in the world but if you're not confident enough to do something, it means nothing honestly.

It's sort of like the example of the white belt who is first participating in kumite and nails one of the higher ranked students a good one confidence is a great thing in martial arts... now, cockiness isn't as great. IMO confidence should be the first thing taught in self-defense.

[Sohan]

Hiya Cross, i do kinda see where your coming from but im not sure i completely understand. Would'nt continuing his training help his confidence and improve things eventually? Or are you saying his karate training is a waste of time, because it isnt working for him? He did try to fight back, but to be honest i think i would be very intimidated if i was in that situation.

Continuing training might improve things, but what have the benifits been upto this point? And how long will it be until he gains some skills he can apply?

Im guessing your son had confidence previous to the attack, was doing well in training etc... Yet he couldnt do a great deal to save himself when it really mattered.

Im not saying his training is a waste of time, has you would be aware there are many benifits to training other than self defence skills, but if that is what your after then there may be something more suitable for him to be doing.

I agree intimidation is a large factor in self defense situations and in your sons situation in particular. I have a question for you that relates to this:

How many times in training has your son been forced to deal with a situation similar to the one he faced at school? How many times has he taken part in a scenario from start to finish including the verbal onslaught followed by realistic aggression towards him leading to physical attack? How many times has the scenario been played out in class with all parties displaying real energy? And dont limit this to your son, how many times have you been placed in situations during training that you would most likely be faced with in real life? If these things arnt addressed in training and you cant deal with it under controlled circumstances, then ofcourse it will be intimidating and you will have no idea how to deal with it other than sitting there getting beat on. Start working the situations and feel the energy in training then all of a sudden the confidence you have is real and the intimidation isnt something new.

Just some things to consider.

I couldn't agree more.

As well-meaning as many schools are, there are too many karate students who are woefully unprepared to handle real-life scenarios because of a lack of situation-specific preparation. Even in our own Okinawan karate dojo, I try to step away from the regular curriculum from time to time, accepting its limitations, and try to teach my kids to handle themselves in situations that are more realistic and applicable. Though our curriculum teaches good long-term fundamentals, most children cannot grasp technique as well as adults do and must learn to protect themselves with more immediately relevant methods.

A well-trained child shouldn't have that much difficulty fending off two untrained attackers of similar age and size, though of course every situation is different. I have seen a few children in my own school that have experienced schoolyard success against multiple attackers, and I credit it directly to the fact that they have had challenging situation-based training. (No, I didn't chase them around the dojo with a rubber knife!)

Kez, I hope things go better for your boy soon. Get those kids expelled--and pursue legal action regardless.

With respect,

Sohan

[bushido_man96]

Cross, bearich, and Andrew_Patton all have good points about the conflict avoidance/de-escalation training. I think that at times in MA classes, students and instructors get to caught up in the curriculum required for testings, and work on some of the other aspects of training.

I can remember being bullied when I was a kid, and all of the years after, I can think back, and I wish that I would have fought back. I have a pretty light demeanor...I have even had a friend of mine tell me that I really don't have that fighter mentality. And some people really don't. It is something that they have to work at. Ryan may be this way as well. Working with him in situations like those mentioned above may be able to boost his confidence level and self-esteem, along with his chances of escaping a repeat of the same scenario.

[a_ninja]

well i dont know the best solution for this one. but i can try to help. im not telling you to take my advice just to consider it. Well it was more that 1 kid and they were bigger than him from what i understand so tell him whats the big deal thay were bigger than him and every one makes mistakes. I know this isnt the best solution for this conflict but its the best i got.

[Elky]

Therein lies the problem - if he's essentially a good kid he won't want to fight even if he should because, as a kid, you're told constantly that fighting is wrong.

Young people need unambiguous guidelines because they don't understand grey areas and subtleties - they're too young. If you believe that the right thing for him to do is to kick the crap out of bullies when they try to pick on him, tell him exactly that! Say "Ryan, if those guys try to hurt you again, you have every right to hit them - you're just defending yourself and I'll make sure that you don't get in trouble with the teachers".

If you believe he should not fight, you need to tell him that too ("Ryan, I know those guys tried to hit you, but don't make yourself as bad as them, just try and get away and tell a teacher")

If you do what most parents do and say "OK, you're learning karate but you're never to actually use it. If you get bullied you can defend yourself but you're not allowed to hurt the bullies" then you get get one confused kid who doesn't know what he is or is not allowed to do.