Jr. Black Belts

[bbk2132]

Hello all.

I am 15 and a Jr. Shodan in Goju-Ryu.

I have a friend who is 13 anda also a Jr. Shodan (although i think she was 12 at the time) who went to a tournement and was put in a division with geen-brown belts because they matched her age group (it was a tournement open to all styles so belt systems varried i believe) She didn't like this because she felt that she was a black belt too and deserved to compete with them. She talked to the tournement head guy and he sort of gave her a "Fine, if it means you will stop bothering me," kind of answer with a warning fo how she probably shouldn't be placed with black belts 18+. I believe she took 1st in kata and second in sparring. (She is an amazing Martial Artist. National champion, and placed in an international tournement too...just don't remember in what divisions...)

I guess i was wondering what eveyone thinks about Jr. Black Belts in general. Do you give them more/less respect then adults. Do they deserve more/less respect?

I have always felt that I am a black belt and that is all, but when my friend went to this tournement they didn't see it that way untill after she blew them out of the water with her mad skills.

I am really interested in hearing your thoughts on Jr. Black Belts in any style, just in general really.

[bushido_man96]

Regardless of rank, I try to give equal amounts of respect to everyone I meet inside and outside of the martial arts.

The funny thing about respect is that it is reciprocal; you get what you give. I also believe that you get respect in two ways; by earning it, and by demanding it.

I can understand that your friend was angry, and in the end, she probably did the right thing in getting into the black belt ranks. What kind of chance would the lower ranks have had against her? Would that have been fair to them?

On the other hand, though, she could have just gone ahead and competed with the lower ranks, and then the tournament organizers would have to have dealt with a bunch of angry parents.

Either way, it sounds like she comes out right, after all.

[cross]

I dont particularly mind either way. There is good and bad in everything. Its usually fairly easy to recognise which is which. And i agree that your friend did the right thing, she felt that she would be better suited to the black belt category and her results showed that she was right.

Out of interest bbk2132, are you required to sit another "full" shodan grading once you reach adult age?

[Sohan]

Sorry to say this, but I do not usually like to see a black belt, junior or other, granted to students younger than 16, particularly since the "McDojo" phenomenon has seriously watered down its value. And quite unfortunately, in my experience many young people do not possess the maturity needed to fully appreciate their rank.

We have a student in our class who is about to test for Shodan at age 15, and his form is lousy, his work ethic is sub-par, and his power is non-existent. However, since he has trained for 11 years, he has finally reached the point of testing.

However....

This 11 year old kid from our sister dojo in Dallas is pretty darned impressive:

http://www.okinawankarateclub.com/promotions/YouthTestShodanFebruary2006/index.htm

With respect,

Sohan

[patusai]

We never had junior black belts. That was long ago. Personally, I am open to new ideas and ways of thinking about such things.

[ps1]

Generally, I'm with Sohan on this. Personally, I do not promote anyone under 16 to shodan. Don't get me wrong...their kata and ippon kumite is usually good. But they don't have the general physical development necessary to defend themselves against a full grown adult. I've had alot of young BBs argue this with me. But when I simply picked them up and started walking around with them...they began to see it differently.

That said, I certainly respect the rank you've been given by your instructor. I would never tell someone else they do not deserve the rank if it was awarded to them.

[srv]

I have no problem with Junior black belts, but in our dojo it is very clear that it is only an honourary black belt. All junior black belts have to retake their shodan test at 16 in order to be a full black belt. There are some juniors who fully deserve their belt (sounds like your friend is one of them) and some who don't, and most (not all) could not compete in free sparring with most adults of say green belt and above, not necessarily because of their skills, but their size and strength. This is why in our dojo, junior shodan tests are not done with adult shodan tests and the test needs to be retaken when you have turned 16. In addition, the junior shodan belts are distinguished from the adult ones by a red stripe on the end of the belt which is removed once the student completes their adult shodan grading.

However, I believe all students deserve the same respect and I would certainly respect the rank that was awarded to you by your instructor.

[Rateh]

I don't understand the size issue when it comes to promoting or not promoting junior black belts. I'm 22 years old, 5 foot 3, 120 pounds. When I tested for shodan I was 20 and 105 pounds.

Currently I work in a middle school with students ranging in ages from 11 to 14. Over 50% of the student population is bigger than me. With nearly all 8th graders being larger.

If size is the only reason not to promote someone to shodan, then I shouldn't be a shodan.

Now maturity is a whole nother ball game imho. If maturity is the reason not to promote to shodan (and I agree it is a good reason), then I totally understand that. But if size is the only reason for holding a 12, 13, 14 or 15 year old back? That I don't understand.

[bushido_man96]

I have to agree with Rateh on the size issue. If it were the case, it would be very difficult to promote many women to the rank of shodan. In most cases, an adult female will not be as physically strong as an adult male, who is untrained.

[Shotokan-kez]

I don't have a problem with junior black belts, we have quite a few in our club. What does bother me is when they start acting the goat and being silly in the dojo, having a black belt means setting a good example, but kids are kids and they will act the goat occasionally. So if they are behaving lol i will show them respect, but like Brian said earlier i try to show respect regardless of rank