Supplements (again)

[Dazed and Confused]

I've done a search and can find plenty of debate over the pros and cons of supplements, but no information about what actually works... Its expensive stuff and I want to choose a brand thats effective, so am I allowed to ask what brands you guys have found work well? I don't know if this breaches the board's user guidelines. If it doesn't then any recommendations for products I can get hold of over here in the UK would be appreciated. I'm mainly interested in creatine and protein supplements, but would be interested in anything you've found that works for general strength and power gains. I'm not at all fussed about weight gain to be honest.

Cheers,

D+C

[bushido_man96]

As opposed to a lot of supplements, there has been a lot of recommendations for protien shakes. You may want to look into some recipes for those instead. Also, they may save you money over buying supplements.

[JackCrevalle]

Most protein supplements are just powdered milk in one form or another unless they clain to be vegetable protein in which case they are soy.

I remember listening to someone on the radio one time relating how they sat with a friend who sold protein pills by mail as the friend filled empty capsules with dried milk.

Do they work? I once read a book by Arnold Swarenagger in which he said that even the best body builders could only put on about 5 pounds of lean muscle per year and if this was divided out across 365 days it came out to very few grams (six if my math is right). So eating gobs more protein above the minimum requirements should not be necessary.

[AikiGuy]

I have used creatine and protein supplements for a while and they both work. Firstly, let me point out that creatine makers say that it works for most people but not every one's body responds to it. About 20 percent of people will have no effect from creatine. Of course, if you are in the other 80 percent you will see results if you use it right. Creatine makes you retain more of the protein you eat. So you should take a protein supplement whenever you take creatine to get full results. Also, this whole process only works if you are doing muscle training regularly. (That's what drains your body's protein supply.) Get a good workout plan and keep at it for a couple of weeks along with the supplements and you should see results. A few years ago, when I first started using creatine monohydrate, I noticed a strength increase in one week. That may not be common but I know this stuff works (for most). If it helps, the protein supplement I use is whey protein. I have used different brands and they all work about the same for me. Just pick a flavor you can tolerate daily and go for it. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

[Sohan]

Creatine makes you retain more of the protein you eat. So you should take a protein supplement whenever you take creatine to get full results.

Not exactly. Creatine is a nitrogeneous organic acid, a fuel source for skeletal muscle during high intensity contractions such as a 5 rep bench or squat set. Supplementing with creatine doesn't help you retain protein but rather enables you to train longer and harder due to a higher quantity of available fuel, which helps you to achieve greater muscle strength and hypertrophic gains.

And taking creatine with protein is a waste of money. Consuming carbohydrate (ie fruit juice) with your supplement will help you absorb the creatine much more effectively than protein.

With respect,

Sohan

[Dazed and Confused]

That being so Sohan would you recommend taking creatine instead of protein supplements? Or both just at different times?

[Sohan]

That being so Sohan would you recommend taking creatine instead of protein supplements? Or both just at different times?

It's not really an either/or situation. I would simply take them at different times: creatine with juice 20-30 minutes before the workout, protein shake after. As long as your consuming consistent protein throughout the day, it's not as important that you eat protein right before the workout.

With respect,

Sohan

[AikiGuy]

Actually Sohan, my information comes directly from a rather large maker of creatine supplements.

It DOES cause you to retain more protein, or in their words, it "aids in the upsweep" of protein into the muscle cells. It does help you train longer too as you mentioned. But you are incorrect in saying it is only good "during high intensity contractions such as a 5 rep bench or squat set". A set of light weight, high rep exercises counts as high intensity too. A good example is a set of pushups, maybe 50 or so until failure. Endurance exercises can be very intense.

As far as being a "waste of money" as you say, that is also not true. As I stated, I have actually done this very successfully. And I was not exactly a beginner at the time. I tracked my progress before and after starting the supplementation. It sounds as if you possibly tried this product without success. I don't know that, but if you did, remember I also pointed out that the makers advertise the fact that not every person will respond to creatine. So if it does nothing for you, that does not mean, it is a waste of money for everyone. Let me assure you, this stuff does exactly what it says if you have the right physiology. I was stronger, had more endurance, and recovered faster after taking it. So aside from all the theories on both sides, I have already proven it. It does work, at least for most people.

Also, most serious weightlifters agree that protein is a good supplement with or without creatine. Your muscles are largely made from protein so if you want more muscle, you need more protein. That's fairly common knowlege. I do agree that taking carbs instead can help though. The only drawback is if you are on a diet. You help your muscles grow but you also help your waistline grow.

Dazed and Confused,

I suggest you try it and see for yourself, but be prepared for the possibility that you are a "non-responder" as they call it. About 20 percent of users' systems do not respond. Good luck!

[Sohan]

Actually Sohan, my information comes directly from a rather large maker of creatine supplements.

Supplement manufacturers are hardly known for being unbiased sources.

It DOES cause you to retain more protein, or in their words, it "aids in the upsweep" of protein into the muscle cells. It does help you train longer too as you mentioned. But you are incorrect in saying it is only good "during high intensity contractions such as a 5 rep bench or squat set". A set of light weight, high rep exercises counts as high intensity too. A good example is a set of pushups, maybe 50 or so until failure. Endurance exercises can be very intense.

Please read my post again. I don't believe I said that creatine was "only" good for 5 rep sets. Creatine was, however, reported in a study published in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise to be most useful for low repetition, high intensity training.

I would be most interested to read any independent peer-reviewed research you might have regarding the retention or "upsweep" of protein into muscle tissue. I've read quite a bit of research about creatine since receiving my Masters degree, and from my reading, I have not yet seen that higher intramuscular creatine levels have been proven to result in increased protein synthesis, much less cause increased "protein uptake" by tissue.

As far as being a "waste of money" as you say, that is also not true. As I stated, I have actually done this very successfully. And I was not exactly a beginner at the time. I tracked my progress before and after starting the supplementation. It sounds as if you possibly tried this product without success. I don't know that, but if you did, remember I also pointed out that the makers advertise the fact that not every person will respond to creatine. So if it does nothing for you, that does not mean, it is a waste of money for everyone. Let me assure you, this stuff does exactly what it says if you have the right physiology. I was stronger, had more endurance, and recovered faster after taking it. So aside from all the theories on both sides, I have already proven it. It does work, at least for most people.

Again, please reread my previous post. I did not say using creatine is a waste of money, nor did I say using protein is a waste of money. I did say that using creatine at the same time as you ingest protein will not provide the uptake that a carbohydrate source does, thus causing you to eliminate as waste more of that expensive creatine than you would have if you had consumed it with carbs.

You likely benefited from your creatine ingestion despite the timing of your protein intake, not because of it. Protein has a minimal effect on increasing insulin levels, which is a major determinant of the rate that creatine is taken up by the system. Carbohydrate causes a much more significant insulin response, which is why carbs are superior to protein for consumption at the time you are ingesting creatine.

Also, most serious weightlifters agree that protein is a good supplement with or without creatine. Your muscles are largely made from protein so if you want more muscle, you need more protein. That's fairly common knowlege. I do agree that taking carbs instead can help though. The only drawback is if you are on a diet. You help your muscles grow but you also help your waistline grow.

Actually, your muscles contain more water than protein (@75% to 20%). Since creatine causes significant intramuscular water retention, this is what causes the appearance of larger muscle tissue.

Keep in mind that protein is the structural component for muscle tissue. Creatine is a metabolite, an energy source. It is analogous to protein being the metal that the car is made from and creatine being the fuel that helps to make it run really, really fast, though only for short distances before refueling. Unlike protein, creatine serves as a primary source of ATP for high intensity work, therefore the more creatine stored in a muscle, the greater the potential for higher volume at high intensity levels during training. This results in greater muscle hypertrophy and strength gains.

With respect,

Sohan

[Dazed and Confused]

Thank you both for your advice, it is greatly appreciated. I'll leave you to your debate!