Violence in the dojo

[bushido_man96]

I guess I've been fortunate in my system to have higher ranking black belts who were very gracious when sparring with lower belts of above average skill. I have always remembered that for when I work with other lower belt levels that take me to the limit. It results in an environment of cooperation, rather than extreme competition, though we still have some over-aggressive hyper-competitive dimwits who still exist from time to time.

With respect,

Sohan

I have seen both of your scenarios, Sohan. It is the ebb and flow of the martial arts.

[Shotokan-kez]

Apology is always important if you hit someone to hard by accident because tempers can flare when it happens too often. I have often hurt someone by accident and immediatly patted him/her on the back and said sorry.

Intentional violence is very much out of order. It's very difficult trying to work with someone who has no control. I tend to hit them back if the same person does it to me too many times, just to let them know i am no soft touch, there is only so much you can take really. If it kept on happening i would report them to sensei.

[juey palancu]

Whe I was younger, say 18-24, about 8-10 years ago, sometimes our dojo's black belts would 'resolve' issues related to getting on each other's nerves by sparring real hard. Resulting from this we had some memorable moments and sparring sessions.

I remember one when our sempai and the 'wannabe sempai', the second-most advanced student who wanted to be first, went at it for about 20 minutes on a practice session in which the sensei wasnt present. It never really became an all-out fight, but the whole affair ended up straddling the line between 'spirited' and 'brutal'. They were really hitting each other very hard. In the end, the sempai reaffirmed that he was, indeed, still better than the other guy when the other guy quit due to a busted rib. To his credit, the other guy never complained to the sensei nor tried to get revenge later. The sensei mostly turned a blind eye to these affairs, although he would frequently reminded that we were training to make each other better, not to mess our peers up.

I was involved in a few such incidents, but none that hardcore. Was it wrong to do those things? Maybe. But we were all friends or at least familiar with each other for years (ours wasnt a commercial dojo). These hard sessions would never involve visitors or colored belts, however.

Any thoughts or similar stories?

[juey palancu]

oops, i meant 8-16 years ago..

[Shotokan-kez]

I will be honest i have never seen this happen between black belts, it's always the lower grades trying to show off that think they are bruce lee.

There was an incident when i beginner was messing around and he tried to do that crane techinique on my son and my son ended up with a nose bleed, i wasn't very impressed to say the least.

The boy didn't apologise to my son and his father didnt say anything either. I do know that sensei had strong words with him but i think an apology to either me or ryan would have been appropriate.

Plus there isnt an awful lot of adults in our class so it isnt really seen.

[kilogreen]

The two people from my original post are still in my club but have both been very scarce for the last month. I asked about and found that the brown belt was supposed to take his First dan in November this year sometime.. I dont know whats happening now. and the Black belt 2nd dan hasn't trained either due to personal reasons not yet explained..

Its all a bit of a mess but just like life my training is never easy and must go on..!

Thanks for all the responses to my initial thread.

[New Beginner]

There's a balance to be struck in sparring, especially if in a style that is full-contact, between enough hard contact to genuinely prepare a student for confrontation, and the unacceptable situation of a lower grade being used as a punchbag. It is difficult because often lower grades escalate contact levels without actually realising it, and in reality a Nidan should be able to react appropriately to contain the situation, but in reality this of course isn't always the case, we're all human after all. From the original post it wouldn't be the level of contact I would be concerned about as much as the loss of control and use of swearing that would indicate a lack of discipline, an absolutely appalling loss of form in front of lower grades. I did once witness a situation like this when I first started training many years ago and unfortunately as well as holding the students responsible, in hindsight I would have to hold the instructor responsible too. That's not the same as blaming the instructor for his or her students behaviour but as instructors we need to be in control of our students and we always need to be vigilant, especially when kumite is in practice, even one step sparring. In my sessions if I specify heavy contact, then that's what I expect, but if I specify light contact and I hear echoes of thumps off the walls then everybody does the forfeit of horrible excercises until they learn that I mean light contact.

Interestingly though, it does very often seem to be the aspiring brown belts in a dojo that seem to want to test the black belts, and having witnessed such sights as Sergey Osipov as a green belt in 1997 knocking out the 3rd Dan favourite in the British Open Knockdown I would never take it for granted that grade will out, it should serve to inform a little graciousness and control into the situation though.

[AngelaG]

These people are just human beings. Wearing a black belt does not give you superhuman powers and we ALL have a point where our tolerance will finally snap. Before you judge someone walk a mile in their shoes.

I find that black belts are often used as punch bags by the lower grades. They think we should just grin and bear it because... well we are black belts aren't we? We should not whinge at getting hit. Sorry but that's not the case. If someone is going too hard or getting cheap shots in then I will warn them a couple of times, but if it carries on then I will take it up a notch or two. A lot of kyu grades don't realise that the higher grades are actually taking the sparring down to their level, so that they can actually learn something. A black belt can whoop a white belt's butt, but who learns anything from that?

The unwritten rule in our dojo is be prepared to receive back what you give. If you don't want to get hit hard then don't go belting other people.

[bushido_man96]

The unwritten rule in our dojo is be prepared to receive back what you give. If you don't want to get hit hard then don't go belting other people.

I came up the ranks with this very rule in the dojang. My feelings are that it is a very good rule.

[juey palancu]

Agreed, it's a very good rule