The Uselessness of Kata

[Jiffy]

imagine if for some reason (hypothetically) you did those rifle drills, but without actually holding the rifle: you made the same movements with your hands and did all the breathing, but without the rifle. and then you pass on the 'kata' to some people who don't know much about rifles; they won't have a clue what you're doing. the squeezing the trigger action might be familiar, but everything else will be obscure and meaningless. this is analagous to what has happened with karate kata.

I agree! That's why it so important for people to research the ancient kata and re-discover the missing links!

there's a huge difference: katanas are sharp. to hurt someone with a bat you have to make a relatively big swing which the opponent can move inside of. a katana only needs a small swing to cut, or a thrust can be made. back to the original point though; i'd be much better off training to defend against a bat attack than a katana attack, because that's what i'm more likely to encounter.

True, but that doesn't mean that the techniques originally designed for Katana can't be used against a bat. You just need to bare in mind the realities of society at that time.

its not necessarily a matter of skill, its more one of actual techniques. a bar brawler with no formal training can still be skilled and dangerous, but he's not going to throw karate techniques at me. what i actually do in bunkai practice is train against a skilled opponent, but that opponent uses common street attacks rather than formal karate techniques.

Exactly! Nothing wrong with that! We can only simulate as close as possible to street situations.

[bushido_man96]

I kind of like Rick's defenition of combat, and of warriors. But, a fight can become combat if a person's intent during the altercation changes. Like if someone really has decided to end your life with his bare hands, or pulls a weapon. Really, it all comes down to intent.

[Rick_72]

I agree Rick. While we do need to recognise where the Kata came from in the first place and what it's purpose was, I don't think we should discount the effectiveness of Kata as a teaching tool in our modern society.

I whole heartedly agree. I think there is plenty of bunkai in kata that is effective in modern society. Its up to us to find it and bring it out.

I do think that the ability to see bunkai in kata is really up to the individual Karateka. You can tell a student over and over what a specific technique of combination of technique's is supposed to achieve, but unless they can see it, they'll never be able to execute it when put in the position to need to.

[cathal]

This has turned out to be a very lively discusssion. It's too bad that Tokkan has chosen not to include his/her opinions on this.

[Brandon Fisher]

This has turned out to be a very lively discusssion. It's too bad that Tokkan has chosen not to include his/her opinions on this.

Yep I agree.

[MisterRadley]

This has turned out to be a very lively discusssion. It's too bad that Tokkan has chosen not to include his/her opinions on this.

Yep I agree.

I also agree.

[Dragn]

I became very negative with kata practise, after years of learning unrealistic applications to kata moves which simply wouldnt work in a real fight. And thats for the moves that I was taught the bunkai for. Many were just a mystery.

It wasnt till many years later that I discovered an Okinawan school that was teaching very different bunkai to what you see in the typical Japanese schools.

As Aisley already said, alot of what is taught as strikes and blocks is actually locking, takedowns and atemi waza. Much of modern Karate is a watered down version of the real thing, aimed at teaching children.

So of course alot of the movements are ineffective in a real fight, because they are completely misunderstood.

To make kata effective you really have to look for those few teachers around who still know the authentic bunkai and then practise it with a partner, gradually increasing the resistance and diversifying the types of attack.

Or you can just do it for the mental and physical benefits, and practise your fighting skills with a live partner, which is what I choose to do these days.

[ps1]

I believe much of it was already watered down when it first entered the states. You had a bunch of guys that had trained for a year or two during the war coming over and teaching it to others. When they didn't have the correct answers for what the bunkai was, they made it up or just said it's secret.

The strangest thing is that anytime I've ever asked anyone who is well trained about bunkai, they've never said, "oh it's secret." I honestly believe that was a cop out for people who didn't know.

Does anyone else agree with this of feel this way?

[ps1]

This has turned out to be a very lively discusssion. It's too bad that Tokkan has chosen not to include his/her opinions on this.

Yep I agree.

I also agree.

I have a feeling that Tokkan just wanted to see if he could ruffle some feathers. He/She was probably thrown off when no one got mad and actually asked for more comments.

[Brandon Fisher]

Mine was I had a instructor that didn't know any kata and just made up stuff. Didn't understand anything behind it and I actually got the point of correcting him. This was a man that started in the early 50's while in korea and took some karate in Japan (total of 5 hours) and claims to have trained with Funakoshi. There are many like this and not many taht turly understand the depth of kata. Its a sad reality.