Saying kata is useless is kinda like calling a screwdriver useless. It's a tool, nothing more. It's usefulness is completely related to the manner in which it is employed. Dave Lowrey once wrote, "You can paint a house with a hammer if it serves your expectations of such an absurd use."

Kata is the same. It's useless if you use it poorly. To me, it is the most valuable tool I have ever used.

Another couple of things to keep in mind about Kata.

-The self defense moves were designed to be applied against a common attack. NOT an attack from another martial artist, or one of the same style. That's not saying that they can't be adapted, but that was never their purpose

-The moves are defenses against common types of attacks and assaults. Lots of grabs, pushes, haymaker type untrained punches etc.

-Although the techniques can be used in sequence, most of them are stand alone techinques. Meaning that even though your flowing from one technique to the other, that doesn't necessarily mean its how they will work. Taika Oyata make a great analogy when he said its like learning the alphabet. We don't make sentences by saying A B C D E F G etc. We rearrange the letters to make a coherent sentence. Its the same way with kata

-The main purpose of kata is to teach you the principles behind the techniques, and to help you better understand the art. This understanding comes through the analyzing and breaking down of the Kata into combat moves. Once your brain gets working in this way you start to see things in a different light and realize the principles at work so that you can make them work in any scenario

Just some thoughts.

That was exactly what I was going for there Jeffy5! You managed to hit the nail on the spot!

Good explanation!

Welcome to the Forum, Tokken. Introduce yourself in the Introductions thread if you haven't already.

I'd like to first say that I have a great amount of respect for you. If indeed you are an experienced Yondan who has less than popular opinions on kata, and are willing to express them in this forum, you must definitely be very self-confident.

Second, I'd like to comment on one of your points:

When was the last time you saw a huge amount of Kata movements used in kumite and contest?

Conclusion? Hardly ever if at all.

I'd like to say that I have seen this many times. In our tournaments I frequently see competitors using kata-based techniques. The most recent one I attended, a friend of mine earned a silver in his category for using a reverse-hip iche-uke, and reverse punch. This allowed him to score and win that match.

IMHO 2-3 katas are enough for a compelet self defense system, but you need to spend the same amount of time or even more in mastery of techniques and combinations.

I would agree. Back in the day (way back like) old masters did not learn a great deal of kata. They concentrated on a few. They took the time to pretty much master one before moving on to the next. The numbers are not important. There are arguements for learning a lot and for learning a few. To each his own. Never-the-less kata is important. Also, many good arguements have been presented. Thanks

If you took Kata out of your training what would happen?

If you took Kata out of your training what would happen?

i'd lose access to countless fighting techniques and principles, mainly.

If you took Kata out of your training what would happen?

I like to think that kata practice helps with skill development. If you take them away, you will lose out on some of the skills.

I guess you could take them away, and then every martial art would be like kickboxing.

Another couple of things to keep in mind about Kata.

-The self defense moves were designed to be applied against a common attack. NOT an attack from another martial artist, or one of the same style. That's not saying that they can't be adapted, but that was never their purpose

-The moves are defenses against common types of attacks and assaults. Lots of grabs, pushes, haymaker type untrained punches etc.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on this. When practicing the bunkai for our kata's we're defending/countering against the same type of attacks that we would give. Straight punches to the ziphoid process, throat, or head.....karate style kicks, straight or round.....and countering tuite/jujitsu holds.

We certainly aren't relying on our opposition being unskilled, because when the technique's are demonstrated by our instructors we aren't throwing bogus technique's at them.

Another couple of things to keep in mind about Kata.

-The self defense moves were designed to be applied against a common attack. NOT an attack from another martial artist, or one of the same style. That's not saying that they can't be adapted, but that was never their purpose

-The moves are defenses against common types of attacks and assaults. Lots of grabs, pushes, haymaker type untrained punches etc.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on this. When practicing the bunkai for our kata's we're defending/countering against the same type of attacks that we would give. Straight punches to the ziphoid process, throat, or head.....karate style kicks, straight or round.....and countering tuite/jujitsu holds.

We certainly aren't relying on our opposition being unskilled, because when the technique's are demonstrated by our instructors we aren't throwing bogus technique's at them.

I like this idea. I would approach the bunkai training with both ways in mind.