The Uselessness of Kata

[jeff5]

Those are all really good points. I think you just have to look at each art individually to really understand it properly. Its too hard to generalize.

[MizuRyu]

I want to hear an elaboration of Tokkan's point.. but it seems he's turned an eye from his topic.

[Jiffy]

Saying kata is useless is kinda like calling a screwdriver useless. It's a tool, nothing more. It's usefulness is completely related to the manner in which it is employed. Dave Lowrey once wrote, "You can paint a house with a hammer if it serves your expectations of such an absurd use."

Kata is the same. It's useless if you use it poorly. To me, it is the most valuable tool I have ever used.

FANTASTIC way of putting it!!!

[Jiffy]

Tokken, there is now 6 pages of lengthy detailed explanations as to why people believe Kata is effective.

Unfortunately, the only comments by you are short and unsubstantiated. Please could you post a detailed message as to why you believe Kata are useless and also to perhaps rebutt or concur some of the opinions here.

[bushido_man96]

Its funny to look at the circles that the martial arts have travelled in. Before katas, when wars were fought in formation with sword, spear, or whatever, the soldiers would do their weapons drilling and practicing, and would then practice their hand to hand combat, for when they came to grips with an enemy. They would train to disarm, or to grapple when the two became close. This is true for both the Samurai and the medieval European soldier. This fighting took place against skilled attackers.

With the onset of kata, the techniques were designed for use against an unskilled opponent, instead of one who has training.

It is just kind of wierd, the regression of the thing.

i think you have to differentiate between self defence arts and battlefield arts. most arts that use kata are not battlefield arts as far as i know, and were designed mainly for random street attacks. for example jujitsu and kendo, which are derived from battlefield systems, aren't big on kata. then if you look at iaido/iaijutsu, which comes from the same place and culture, its all kata and it is designed for use in surprise street attacks.

This is true, but the societies were using the weapons/grappling systems before the forms systems came into place. Even the ancient Greeks, with boxing, wrestling, and pankration, would practice to fight against skilled opponents, and not just the untrained attacker. They may not have used weapons disarming either.

However, with the advent of the firearm and the reduction of close quarter weapons combat, everything began changing so as to preserve the fighting arts.

[alsey]

Those are all really good points. I think you just have to look at each art individually to really understand it properly. Its too hard to generalize.

true, the generalisation doesn't really work. its just a thought that came to me at the time.

[alsey]

This is true, but the societies were using the weapons/grappling systems before the forms systems came into place. Even the ancient Greeks, with boxing, wrestling, and pankration, would practice to fight against skilled opponents, and not just the untrained attacker. They may not have used weapons disarming either.

However, with the advent of the firearm and the reduction of close quarter weapons combat, everything began changing so as to preserve the fighting arts.

true, though i think the greek systems were sport oriented somewhat like modern MMA. it just seems to me that a lot of kata using arts were designed for non-sporting, non-battlefield situations. there are exceptions of course.

[y2_sub]

like elbows_and_knees said, once you learn the kata you should begin practicing the techniques contained in it with a partner. the aim is that with enough practice, you'll be able to use the kata movements on a fully resisting opponent.

I have a better idea , instead of mastering your kata first (which will consume a lot of time ) and then breakin' it into training drills with partner (which will also take additional time since kata/forms are different than real application ) , why not cuttin' it short and start learning those blocks/strikes/grapples directly with a partner and in a practical way !!!!

I mean , lets face it , have you ever seen somebody using the horse stance in a tournament or a street fight to apply a strike or a grapple ???

[alsey]

I have a better idea , instead of mastering your kata first (which will consume a lot of time ) and then breakin' it into training drills with partner (which will also take additional time since kata/forms are different than real application ) , why not cuttin' it short and start learning those blocks/strikes/grapples directly with a partner and in a practical way !!!!

without the kata, you don't have the techniques. they're not taught in karate these days (in most schools). practicing kata helps you to understand what the movements are for, as well as giving a means of practice when you don't have a partner. there are some moves where me and the people i train with would develop an application, practice it, then later through doing the kata we'd find another application, sometimes a better one.

I mean , lets face it , have you ever seen somebody using the horse stance in a tournament or a street fight to apply a strike or a grapple ??

yes. not as perfect as it looks in kata, but yes.

[Rick_72]

I must be missing something here, or I'm just not as well read as some.

Which one of the founders of Karate said that kata was designed for defense against an unskilled attacker? My history must be a bit foggy, because I was under the impression that Okinawan Karate was a hybrid of Chinese martial arts, and was used by the Okinawan's after the Japanese banned weapons in Okinawa to wage guerrilla war against the Japanese Samurai. Then Tode Sakagawa, who trained in Chinese martial arts for 20 years, and was himself Samurai to the Okinawan King, honed the style into Karate, or Okinawa Te. I must also be mistaken in the believe that Karate is based upon kata that was brought back from China. Of course there's a lot more to it than this, but I've shortened all I've read due to space and interest.

Now I seriously doubt that Chatan Yara, and Tode Sakagawa were really concerned with defending themselves against drunken muscle head's throwing haymakers at them in a bar fight. I also seriously doubt that the Samurai of the Satsuma clan of Kyushu were themselves invading the Ryukyu islands with a bunch of no skilled morons that grabbed up little villagers by their kimono lapels for them to practice their breaks, grabs, and holds on.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful to anyone, I just don't understand who's teaching bunkai out there. When I was to the point where I started learning bunkai (I firmly believe novice students shouldn't be learning bunkai right away in their training, as its going to be too much to understand until the basic movements are in their head), we have always been taught based upon skilled attacks, not some garbage haymaker, or unbalanced nonsense swipe in the air. Of course the bunkai will also work on those unskilled attacks, but why would anyone under estimate their potential attacker like this?