The Uselessness of Kata

[Zorbasan]

youve never done bunkai from a lapel grab, wrist grab or hook punch?

[jeff5]

If you look at it from a pure self defense stand point, you're very unlikely to be attacked by another trained martial artist. And even less likely to be attacked by someone using the same style and techniques that you would use. The creators of kata knew this, and its as true today as it was years ago when they were created. I believe Choki Motobu is actually the one who stated this.

That's not saying its wrong to use the techinques and principles in kata to defend against Karate style attacks. I think you're supposed to learn the and make them work in any scenario. But for the initial deciphering of the movement it might not be the best idea to look at the attack as a trained, martial arts type of attack.

[alsey]

i agree. i find kata movements 'fit' easily with haymakers and lapel grabs, or even just someone shaking their fist at you. i believe this is what they were intended for as well. i find in practice if someone attacks with rapid punch combos, a good throw attempt or a high kick, its difficult to use kata techniques in defence. doesn't mean they can't be used like that, but i really don't think that's what they're intended for. if someone starts kickboxing with me, its my kumite training i'll probably rely on rather than kata.

[y2_sub]

Better do practice those grabs with a partner than to apply them on an 'imaginary enemy'

[elbows_and_knees]

I think that kata practiced in the form they are at many places today is completely useless. I even think understanding the bunkai is useless, if you aren't doing it correctly.

Once a form has been learned, you should be breaking each section of the form out into two person fighting drills. The drills should be modified slightly to reflect the way you want to move in a fight situation - narrower stance, etc.

[bushido_man96]

Its funny to look at the circles that the martial arts have travelled in. Before katas, when wars were fought in formation with sword, spear, or whatever, the soldiers would do their weapons drilling and practicing, and would then practice their hand to hand combat, for when they came to grips with an enemy. They would train to disarm, or to grapple when the two became close. This is true for both the Samurai and the medieval European soldier. This fighting took place against skilled attackers.

With the onset of kata, the techniques were designed for use against an unskilled opponent, instead of one who has training.

It is just kind of wierd, the regression of the thing.

[elbows_and_knees]

i agree. i find kata movements 'fit' easily with haymakers and lapel grabs, or even just someone shaking their fist at you. i believe this is what they were intended for as well. i find in practice if someone attacks with rapid punch combos, a good throw attempt or a high kick, its difficult to use kata techniques in defence. doesn't mean they can't be used like that, but i really don't think that's what they're intended for. if someone starts kickboxing with me, its my kumite training i'll probably rely on rather than kata.

exactly.

[alsey]

Its funny to look at the circles that the martial arts have travelled in. Before katas, when wars were fought in formation with sword, spear, or whatever, the soldiers would do their weapons drilling and practicing, and would then practice their hand to hand combat, for when they came to grips with an enemy. They would train to disarm, or to grapple when the two became close. This is true for both the Samurai and the medieval European soldier. This fighting took place against skilled attackers.

With the onset of kata, the techniques were designed for use against an unskilled opponent, instead of one who has training.

It is just kind of wierd, the regression of the thing.

i think you have to differentiate between self defence arts and battlefield arts. most arts that use kata are not battlefield arts as far as i know, and were designed mainly for random street attacks. for example jujitsu and kendo, which are derived from battlefield systems, aren't big on kata. then if you look at iaido/iaijutsu, which comes from the same place and culture, its all kata and it is designed for use in surprise street attacks.

[alsey]

Better do practice those grabs with a partner than to apply them on an 'imaginary enemy'

like elbows_and_knees said, once you learn the kata you should begin practicing the techniques contained in it with a partner. the aim is that with enough practice, you'll be able to use the kata movements on a fully resisting opponent.

[elbows_and_knees]

I dunno if the dilenneation is that clear. shuai chiao and xingyi were arts taught to royal soldiers, and both arts use forms. SC's forms are MUCH different, but XY uses forms as we know them to be.