an interesting perspective on the kyu and dan system

[alsey]

my friend just mailed me this link:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/07/23/how-long-until-black-belt/

its an article about the belt system which so many of us are part of. it starts off by asking 'how long until i get my black belt?' but it actually goes quite deep (maybe too deep) into the hierarchy of MA, and how MA progresses or does not progress. its pretty pessimistic, but i kind of agree with some of it. in my relatively short MA career i've encountered problems where i couldn't do certain things or was told certain things were wrong just because someone of higher rank says so, or because that's what's been done for years.

thoughts?

[parkerlineage]

I've got absolutely no problem putting a bunch of tape on kids' belts to keep them training. To me, tt's worth it to keep the few that actually stick with it and get good.

And we don't have to pay $200 to get black belt certification.

But the author does make some good points - I'm all for a no-belt system, or at leat breaking it down to white-brown-black.

[hurricane]

This is an interesting article. I would probably agree on the white-green-brown-black system with no more additional ranks to black. I especially liked the part about creativity. In my dojo, it is nurtured that you eventually make your karate YOUR karate, as you become more experienced. But this does certainly not go so far as to say "invent a new kata" or even just "come up with new ideas of teaching". It is more about personalizing your own karate.

So I do think that a little more freedom for creativity couldn't hurt.

[patusai]

Sometimes...sometimes, I think that way to go is kinda like a pass/fail system in some schools. Your either a kyu or a dan. You either wear a white belt for years and after that a black belt. No stripes or nothing to signify rank. Grades can be given to specify level but the grades can never be used in reference to yourself. Of course a lot of people will either not follow that plan or will choose to leave MA and do their own thing. Unfortunately, Americans, and others too for sure, need to "keep their eye on the prize and that prize is a BB. Training to train is out of the question. Perhaps we will see a time when there are 20 key levels followed by 20 dan levels because, well, we need to encourage and maintain students. Sometimes...again, sometimes, you just want to go off in some cafe and train alone...but then...well, that won't work for most of us either.

Excellent link I thought

[lordtariel]

I think the media has to take some of the blame with the expectations of new students about the uber-awsome technique enhancing black belt. Most people don't realize that having a black belt simply means you've got a basic handle on all the stuff you need to start your martial arts training, not that you're instantly a master of whatever system you are in. I remember when I started Judo(USJF) how dissapointed I was that there was only four belt colors(White-Green-Brown-Black) and it would probably take 1-1/2 years to even get to green. On the positive side, I wasn't spending months obsessing about when I was going to get my next belt. I feel there's really nothing wrong with the idea of a two/three belt system A strip of fabric doesn't necessarily mean anything except to help a new student figure out who he can ask a question to. There's nothing wrong with being proud that you got your black belt, it is a great achievment, just don't let it go to your head.

[MisterRadley]

Interesting article, it really makes you think about the belt system. Thanks for the post, it was good reading.

[ps1]

24fightingchickens used to post on this site. I haven't seen him in a while though. There are alot of good articles on that site.

[bushido_man96]

This is a very interesting article, and brings up some good points. Why can't the martial arts progress like boxing or wrestling? They have no ranks, and have plenty of members.

However, the rank system does provide some benefits, like providing a guide as to where the abilities or knowledge of the student lie.

Personally, I have trained for so long, that I could go either way.

That said, I plan to test for 3rd dan in April, and it will cost me $250! That kind of stinks, but what's a guy to do?

[Shotokan-kez]

It was a very inbteresting article, the thing that stuck out for me was about the kids and their ranks. I like the belt system and i think it should stay in place but i dont think some of the people deserve their ranks, so yes the tape on belts sounds like a good idea. Also the older guy thing, there was a big older guy grading for blck belt at our dojo recently and he failed. But should old people be judged, surely their fitness levels cant be as good as the younger one's

[alsey]

for me, the most annoying thing about the belt system is that belts have become ranks within a particular style and they don't really mean anything to anyone else anymore. if you change style or school your grade often counts for nothing.

the other thing in the article which i really agreed with is that there is no 'graduation' in most MA, especially those that use dan grades. you just keep learning and learning what people have been learning for years without question. there doesn't seem to be any way to improve the system. sure you can write a book, i have read some amazing karate books written recently, but its rare to find an organisation that would dare to incorporate some of those changes.

MA is a science in my view: you have theories, you try them out and if they don't work then you try to find a better theory. in most sciences you get your PhD then start contributing to the community and adding new knowledge, in MA there doesn't seem to be any way of doing this other than breaking away from your current organisation and starting your own.

personally i'd love to see a system where there is a point that you stop getting ranks and become equal to everyone else. make things a bit more open instead of the almost feudal structure we have now. maybe 5th dan as the author of the article suggested. at that point does one really need grades to be encouraged to keep training? seriously, i stopped needing that when i was a purple belt. and maybe, instead of getting another grade for doing the same things other people did, get like the equivalent of a nobel prize for doing something new.

this idea has problems of course, i havn't thought about it thoroughly.

Edited September 2, 2006 by alsey