When a master?

[Ezomatsu]

19 hours ago, sensei8 said:

If I may respectfully ask, just how so?? 

How so what? The misuse? They're not used in a way to address sensei in Japan, and you'd never refer to yourself as such. That's just an incorrect usage. But also, just why?

[KorroddyDude]

4 hours ago, aurik said:

Most of the instructors I have interacted with, especially the ones who have been awarded shogo titles, prefer to be called "Sensei".  We always refer to our CI as just "Sensei".  Any other (full) instructor is "<name> sensei".  The exception is our CI's father, who we refer to as just "hanshi" - he doesn't insist on it, but we just do it out of respect.  When the head of our organization visits, he simply asks to be called "Sensei".

I have yet to run across an instructor in our style who insists on being referred to by his/her shogo title.

In my interactions with those of high dan rank from styles with shogo titles, those titles are only used when referring to such individuals in the third person.  But I don't think that matters.  Ezomatsu simply called out the (mis)use of those titles, not those who hold those titles requiring their students to address them as such.

We don't have shogo titles in Shotokan*, so I don't have a dog in the debate over the use of those titles.  But I don't think that the motive for criticizing the use of these titles is nobler than the usage.

*Yes, I'm aware of some, such as the late Vincent Cruz.  But you'll typically only find these in Shotokan dojos that are either independent or affiliated to smaller organizations founded by a Westerner.  I believe that those of us in larger reputable organizations like ISKF, JKA, SKIF, JKS, etc have a legitimate right to play the "no true Scotsman" card on that.

Edited 8 hours ago by KorroddyDude

[Ezomatsu]

17 hours ago, KorroddyDude said:

The worst thing you can do in a Western egalitarian society such as ours is to have a title that implies command of respect from other people.  That will easily attract a mob that can't wait to take you down a peg.

That's not at all what's happening here, and there are plenty of distinguished titles ie doctor, professor, various job titles. I don't see any mobs trying to take my primary care physician's title away, nor do I see any going after Americans calling themselves grandmaster, hanshi etc.

I disagree with your premise too, "western" (a very loaded term that's kinda incoherent and was greated for jingoistic reasons mostly) society is nowhere near egalitarian.

[Ezomatsu]

Relevant to this discussion: https://kodokanboston.org/2024/01/02/another-martial-arts-post-on-titles/

[KorroddyDude]

10 minutes ago, Ezomatsu said:

That's not at all what's happening here, and there are plenty of distinguished titles ie doctor, professor, various job titles. I don't see any mobs trying to take my primary care physician's title away, nor do I see any going after Americans calling themselves grandmaster, hanshi etc.

If someone refers to you as a primary care physician, there's no implication that the person using that term is submitting to you.  That's the difference.

10 minutes ago, Ezomatsu said:

I disagree with your premise too, "western" (a very loaded term that's kinda incoherent and was greated for jingoistic reasons mostly) society is nowhere near egalitarian.

If I say "big yellow square," does that mean that all big squares are yellow?  No, I simply mean that the square is big and yellow.

But our society is egalitarian, even if it's only true on paper.  That's why we freak out when we find out that it's not in practice (such as gunning to take the "grand pubas" down a peg).  This isn't the case in many other parts of the world.

Edited 7 hours ago by KorroddyDude

[Ezomatsu]

4 hours ago, KorroddyDude said:

If someone refers to you as a primary care physician, there's no implication that the person using that term is submitting to you.  That's the difference.

If I say "big yellow square," does that mean that all big squares are yellow?  No, I simply mean that the square is big and yellow.

But our society is egalitarian, even if it's only true on paper.  That's why we freak out when we find out that it's not in practice (such as gunning to take the "grand pubas" down a peg).  This isn't the case in many other parts of the world.

Submitting to who? I really don't know what you mean here.

 

Quote

If I say "big yellow square," does that mean that all big squares are yellow?  No, I simply mean that the square is big and yellow.

You said:

Quote

Western egalitarian society such as ours

This isn't really the place to parse this out, but since you started it and have continued it, I will reply. Basically every meaningful metric, wealth, health, wealth inequality, life expectancy, education, incarceration, political power, structure of workplaces, job precarity, housing, unhoused people, race, LGBTQ+ rights, womens rights, and more, US society it's not egalitarian, and very much so hasn't ever been, nor was it ever intended to be. If you'd like to continue this, we should probably do so elsewhere.

Putting all of that aside, it's more than a stretch to go from me criticizing titles to "a mob" trying to take anyone "down a peg."

Again, it's all just very unnecessary, and I've trained with some highly skilled and quite famous karateka, none of them felt the need be addressed by any title, nor are they.

Other than stroking ones ego, what is the point? As I pointed out previously, they're also very commonly incorrectly used, which just makes people look more silly to boot.

[sensei8]

7 hours ago, Ezomatsu said:

How so what? The misuse? They're not used in a way to address sensei in Japan, and you'd never refer to yourself as such. That's just an incorrect usage. But also, just why?

I do agree that the usages of Shogo titles are widely incorrect and should not be worn as a badge for all to see or marvel about. 

One of the most important lessons we learned whenever our founder and our sensei took us to Okinawa was that giving back for what we’ve been given. 

I’ve always been addressed by my first name or sensei. Anything else is unacceptable nor is it wanted, and has never been insisted upon by myself.