Becoming a Black belt

[AngelaG]

We have a young man at my dojo. Last year I asked him when he was coming up to he adults lessons (16+), he looked at me incredulously and told me he was 12 years old!! This boy was only just in secondary school and yet he was very large and VERY powerful. His understanding is also very good. I'm of the opinion that people should be judged on individual merits.

[SubGrappler]

Children should be compared to other children, not adults. Being invincible should not be required to be worthy of a black belt.

As was explained in an earlier reply, one does not need to be invincible, but should prove to be a competent fighter in the least.

If a child works as hard for as long as an adult, and has the same skill level, why deny him a black belt? So that we can feel better about our own black belt?

Because children dont have the same skill level than grown men do. Just because a kid can throw a kick out there doesnt mean he doesnt have any power behind it, that he knows what hes doing, or that he can teach anyone else the mechanics. Its the same reason why a kid doesnt get a PhD it simply takes so long and so much work to get that by the time you're able to, you're an adult.

I shake my head when I see kids with black belts, because they cant fight, but they're black belts like their heros- in their minds they think they can fight. I understand how they get their belts in the first place however, because most of the grown black belts in their academies cant fight either.

So, to turn the question around on you, why should you give the kid a black belt? So that you dont hurt his self esteem?

I know of two kids who are 17 years old- both have been training since they were infants (the ones father has a picture of him armbarring his teddy bear when he was 2). Both are quite skilled grapplers, but one is a purple belt, the other is a blue belt- purple is the middle rank, blue is the first belt after white- they arent getting their black belts any time soon.

If you wonder why most martial arts arent given respect anymore, its because of things like this- handing out black belts at a dime a dozen to people who cant fight. A black belt is supposed to be difficult to earn, its supposed to be something that not everyone can achieve, but to satisfy monetary and self esteem issues, so many schools have overlooked this.

[JWLuiza]

We use a junior system. You can even get a junior 2nd degree. However, at 16 you test for shodan again, this time senior. You don't get a black belt number until senior as well. Advancement is necessary, but on AVERAGE, a young child isn't the same as an adult in terms of understanding. Some aspects of black belt, in MY school, are not relative, but absolute.

[SigungWhite]

I know that in Korean, by the time a TKD kid is 17 or 18 they are already 2 or 3rd dans. They don't have a junior system there either.

Sigung White

[MartialArthur]

SubGrappler, I know for a fact that an 11 or 12 year old can have the same or better skill level than an adult. I have seen it with my own eyes several times. They must endure the same rigorous training and pass the same tests. Their power (compared to their size) is impressive by any standard. Why would you keep a kid who earns a black belt from getting it? For an adult's self esteem?

If you would require a black belt to have the same power as a grown man, then you are also excluding most adult women. Good luck with that.

..

Edited February 21, 2006 by MartialArthur

[SigungWhite]

I agree with that about an 11 or 12 year. However, I think that junior programs give kids confidence in dealin with life's little situataions. If they are a junior BB who cares.

Sigung White

Note; it won't take anything away from the Martial Arts

[Spirit At Choice]

A similar topic came up at the dojo last night. Our senseis try not to invite students to test unless they are confident the student is ready. But tests change how a student performs, just due to the nature of the testing situation, and some people underperform or just crumble emotionally.

It's not just physical skill that gets tested. With each new rank, the test gets longer by about half an hour, so endurance can be tested as well. But also, the instructors get tougher and tougher. If they feel like a student (especially youngsters) are performing techniques well, and have good stamina, but aren't mature enough, they will lay it on in the stress department.

I've seen some adults get emotional during testing. Any sort of defeatism ("I can't" "It's too hard" "I'm getting confused") will disqualify a student for that test.

I don't object to kids getting black belts if they have the technique, endurance AND maturity. I know our ranking system is designed to help kids feel successful while giving them lots of time to grow up, too. If a kid started karate at age six, and tested (and passed) every three months (on average), she'd be 11 by the time she got her black belt. That would have to be one dedicated kid. It seems unlikely in the extreme. Especially since rank tests seem to have more and more time between them the higher you go.

Here's our belts system. (I'm new at this, so I hope I've got this right...)

Pre-Karate (3 - 5 yo) White belt with numerous stripes of the rainbow can be earned

Kid's Karate (Under 13 yo)

White

White + 1 yellow stripe

White + 2 yellow stripes

Yellow

Yellow +1 purple stripe

Yellow + 2 purple stripes

Purple

Purple + 1 blue stripe

Purple + 2 blue stripes

Blue

Blue + 1 green stripe

Blue + 2 green stripes

Green

Green + 1 brown stripe

Green + 2 brown stripes

Brown

Brown + 1 black stripe

Brown + 2 black stripes

Black

Adult Karate uses the same stripe system, but has only White, Green, Brown, Black.

[SubGrappler]

SubGrappler, I know for a fact that an 11 or 12 year old can have the same or better skill level than an adult.

I still disagree- those "adults" are athletically challenged in my opinion.

They must endure the same rigorous training and pass the same tests.

Im not used to standardized tests for promotion, but I guess you could consider each time you train at the gym to be a "test." The best 12 year old kids are going to get rolled on by any adult thats their same size. Children are not fully developed physically in comparison with adults

Their power (compared to their size) is impressive by any standard.

Of course, the larger you get, technically the weaker you become. For example, if you go by bodyweight, the strongest individuals are the lightest ones- guys who are 125 lbs but can bench press 300- thats almost 3 times their body weight. But a guy who's 250 lbs cant even do twice his weight if hes "only" benching 400 lbs.

Why would you keep a kid who earns a black belt from getting it? For an adult's self esteem?

..

As was said, I have yet to see a kid who's "earned" it.

If you would require a black belt to have the same power as a grown man, then you are also excluding most adult women. Good luck with that.

..

They dont have to have the same power as a grown man, but if you're doing a striking art where the objective is to nullify an opponent via strikes, you can be as flashy or as quick as you want, and it means absolutely nothing if you cant put anything behind your attack.

[MartialArthur]

Well, SubGrappler, I'm sure we would agree on one thing: neither one of us would award someone a black belt who did not deserve it. I have just been fortunate to train some truly exceptional kids.

[Sensei Rick]

Me too martial arthur!! i've posted about this before. please read!!!!

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=295103#295103