Well rounded vs. "mastery"?

[elbows_and_knees]

This conflicts with...

it doesn't really work that way. What if you trained judo and karate, then you taught me. I learned throws and strikes, but I prefer strikes. Consequently, I teach my students my specialties - strikes. I may throw in a few throws, but changes are they will have less focus. This means that my students will learn less throwing than I did. And their students may learn even less. consequently, systems don't really round themselves out. At the end of the day, karate is still known for it's strikes. After all these hundreds of years, why has it not rounded itself out and become known for more? Why haven't thai arts become known for throwing?

...this...

that is the beauty of MMA schools. All under one roof. All a workable price. And you can do it while retaining a life.

...if you apply it to your argument.

There is no conflict. We have separate classes for separate things. two other coaches and myself teach thai boxing. Two guys teach judo. Two guys teach bjj. It's all integrated into a separate mma class we also have. In that class, there is always both a bjj and thai instructor present.

Where's the truth? Some where in the middle I think. Yes every teacher will have his specialties. When I speak of being well rounded, I'm not talking about spherical. There will be somethings that will be better then other things. This is true of each student and each teacher. The trick is that they are not the same specialties and not the same background. This is what rounds out arts.

This I do not disagree with. But I think you should be proficient. And, even though I trained grappling and throwing in kung fu, I would not say I was proficient at them.

To say that as a MMA you have the monopoly on well roundness what you need to do is bring an argument to the table that only applies to one side. So far everything you've said applies just as much to an MMA class as it does a traditional art.

I never said there was a monopoly. I'm saying that on average, IME anyway, the average tma school will not be as proficient in these different areas as a sport stylist will be.

You asked why after all these years is Karate known for it's striking? Simple answer. For the same reason people know Idaho for it's potatoes, even though we export about as much wheat and barley as we do potatoes and almost twice as much beef. What you have is a bunch of people who don't live here and don't farm making assumptions. Same with karate. Traditional karate is an inclusive art, that is very much mixed already. Sure Funikoshi and countless other Japanese and Okinawans have been all to eager to exploit karate's claim to fame, it's striking, to further popularize the style, but in all reality karate is much more then just potatoes. Problem is you have to go there to find out for yourself.

Not always true. Like I said, it's there, but is not emphasized. I know this from experience. and sparring - it's no secret that funakoshi did NOT want sparring in his art... he thought it would water it down.

What is well rounded and what isn't is very subjective.

I agree, and that is why we are disagreeing.

You can't say that you have to practice throws, strikes, and groundwork at least once or twice a month to qualify, because then someone asks, "Well what about breathing exercises, conditioning, stance work, perception training, weapons, etc. You can't be well rounded without these!".

This is a different issue. for example, IMO stance training is great, but is not a necessity for fighting. Most will disagree. Conditioning should be incorporated into the training. These are all training issues, not necessarily issues regarding a skill set needed to be proficient in fighting, with the exception of weapons, but I see what you are getting at.

[Anbu Alex]

Ima ruin this disscusion i think it depends on wat the individual themselves wants everyone is different i mean for awhile i did mma it was fun but i felt it was lacking things that traditional martial arts have i am in no way saying traditional is the way to go but i feel the traditional art im in now is really helping fixed the problems i had also i feel mma is 70% phydical 30% mental where as Traditional applys the mental in different possibilities

[Jay]

i add to my karate by looking at different styles when i have time so imsort of a mixture

[shotochem]

That would be nice...IF you had the money to take numerous different classes at the sme time, and IF you didn't have a life other than to devote to the study of various martial arts.

Myself, I have to work (you know...a job?) and that alone takes up well over 40 hours/week, then there are the other things like friends and family. I'm not married, but if I was, I'm sure she would be thrilled to have me come home from work and then disappear to martial arts training for another couple of hours.

Another thing to consider here is that different arts are designed for different purposes. Shorin Ryu, my chosen art, is designed for personal self-defense, not sport and not to be an all consuming forcus of my life. When I was 22 and just getting into the art, yes, I worked out considerbly more than I do now because I had the time and energy to do so. Now at 52, I have other interests....but I have the skills also to be able to defend myself if need be. My focus isn't to be a killing machine or enter the UFC of some other sort of competition.

Hi Shorin,

I am In the situation you described only married with 2 kids and you've got a couple of years on me. I find myself in agreement with what you have said.

Prefer to study one art for many of the reasons you described above. I also dabble in other arts as I find them interesting and I absorb as much as I can from others. I still sneak into a friends dojo every now and then or beg my wife to let me take an occassional SD class or seminar.

I can't do it as much as I would like but I'm not a kid anymore and life has its joys and responsibilities. Does that make me any less the martial artist? I don't think so.

It may be a "way of life" but it's not all there is in life.

[elbows_and_knees]

Ima ruin this disscusion i think it depends on wat the individual themselves wants everyone is different i mean for awhile i did mma it was fun but i felt it was lacking things that traditional martial arts have i am in no way saying traditional is the way to go but i feel the traditional art im in now is really helping fixed the problems i had also i feel mma is 70% phydical 30% mental where as Traditional applys the mental in different possibilities

It's way more mental than that. Out of curiosity, did you just train, or did you compete?

as for the problems that are being fixed - what were they?

[Anbu Alex]

Its mental but not as Mental as trditional its mental as in if your in the street and always looking around prepared fpr a fight where as traditional you look weak or unskilled but give off the vibe that ppl dont want to bother with you on the awareness part of it is more focused on

I trained and competed but i did it more for street fighting cause i live in a very bad neighborhood so i applied my stuff more for street fighting then competition

now im not saying every mma has this problem but traditional fixes your technique and seems less on a constant dependency on buiding Muscle strength to try and get stronger striking and grappling power dont get me wrong if it works it works Different paths leading hopefully too the same goal

[elbows_and_knees]

Its mental but not as Mental as trditional its mental as in if your in the street and always looking around prepared fpr a fight where as traditional you look weak or unskilled but give off the vibe that ppl dont want to bother with you on the awareness part of it is more focused on

that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about mental as in willpower. To train so hard that you feel like you are about to puke, but you keep going. To step into a ring and compete. To be losing to a guy and perservere through it because you are determined to pull of the win. To keep going, even when your brain tells you that you are completely drained...

now im not saying every mma has this problem but traditional fixes your technique and seems less on a constant dependency on buiding Muscle strength to try and get stronger striking and grappling power dont get me wrong if it works it works Different paths leading hopefully too the same goal

mma is not dependent on muscle. it definitely helps - every advantage does. But at the end of the day, you need skill, especially with grappling.

[italian_guy]

From my current martial art practice I can say I'm trying to achieve both. My JKD/Kali practice gives me an overview of different Martial arts (Kickboxing/MT,kali,wing chun, grappling) while in my karate practice I try to focus on one art instead.

However I think that in a street fight, who has the widest (not the deepest) knowledge is favorite. IMO