no gi'ing it in a gi class

[xdevilmaycry24x]

for mixed martial arts, i think you should have the option to wear a gi

[SubGrappler]

I still dont see any real advantage to training in a gi if you are interested in mma and no gi events. If the gi was such a plus then why do so many bjj guys get stomped by great wrestliers like Huges, severn, shamrock, kerr, and the like, all guys who never used the gi and added submissions much later in life. BJJ, which I love is no different than Judo, as long as there is a Gi they will rule because they live in their gi's but in no gi comp. it has no value. The reasons i here are, it teaches them better tec. and adds to their skill. I think you train the most in your sport to be the best in your sport ask Mike Jordan about baseball. So if you want to be better at no gi then that is the style you need to train in.

Im not going to try to start up a whole "gi vs no gi" argument, but I'll still add some insight.

First off, the gi is a good training tool for teaching people to achieve technicality- this is especially usefull for people who are natrual athletes and used to using their strength. The same techniques could be achieved in no gi just as well, but notice I said tool and not neccessity.

That being said, its fine and well to add submissions to your game later on, however, many of the people you mentioned are not in the top tier when it comes to submissions skills. Hughes has had his hands full with jiu jitsu fighters in 2 of his fights- one against BJ Penn and another against Renato Verissimo. Although he technically won his fight against Renato, Renato caught him in a full blown triangle (which he should have never lost) and even after Hughes escaped, Renato would flow from one sub attempt to the next. I personally think he lost that match because the judges obviously knew nothing about ground fighting.

This does swing both ways though- George St. Pierre is a purple belt and accomplished no gi fighter, but he was still submitted by Hughes (the gi obviously didnt work its magic in that fight )

Heres what I think- the gi doesnt make you better at no gi- its grappling that makes you better at grappling. Its much easier to fight when you're subtracting something than when you're adding it (for instance, it would be easier for a no gi fighter to fight a match where no leg locks are allowed, then it would for him to fight a match where the gi is added).

Back to the gi- because the gi has so many grips and makes for a much slower game than no gi, you can arguably train in it more often. No gi is fast and strong and built for athletic fighters. Because the gi game can be slowed down to a pace much less than that of no gi, you could arguably train more often which would give you more grappling experience. Once again, this can still be achieved in no gi just as well, but I find it less likely.

All of that being said, if you want to just do MMA, I see no problems with doing only no gi, but I do see the gi as a possible usefull tool. I myself prefer no gi to gi, and am much more a jiu jitsu fighter (attacking with triangles, armbars, and omoplatas) than I am a submission wrestler (takedowns, footlocks, stalling).

Personally, I think that is the reason why you see the BJJ fighters beating the wrestlers who have crossed to sub wrestling- the BJJ fighters have been working on submissions for 10+ years- even though the wrestlers have been grappling for that long, they've only worked subs for a few years, and as i stated, I think its easier to fight when you subtract something (the gi) then adding something (submissions)

[makosub-wrestling]

Why I agree with most of what you say, I just do the math different. I am adding speed and strength for the wrestlier and subtracting holds for leverage, holds for attacking, and holds for defense that the BJJ fighter depends on. It is like always driving a stick then moving to an automatic you tend to look for something that is gone due to the years of muscle memory. I do think that the perfect fighter is equal experience in wrestling for takedowns and mat transition, BJJ ( no gi ) for submissions (due to their inclusive development using sambo and judo) and tuy boxing for striking.

[SubGrappler]

I didnt say that training exclusively with the gi wouldnt have unwanted side effects.

One of those side effects, as Bravo pointed out, was that some people get so caught up in the grip game that it negates their need for positioning abilities (such as hip movement/position).

Indeed, there are many gi fighters who base their entire game on one hand in the collar and the other on the sleeve with feet in the hips for armbar, triangle, choke, and sweep setups. Once the gi is taken away, people who are otherwise black belts have the skills of blue or purple belts, if that.

That is the one thing I dont like about the gi- you get some guys who win a gi tournament based on only one move (i.e. a sweep from this position) and its easy to force your way there because of the grips. I feel that the no gi game is more natrual and showcases talent much better because you have to constantly switch up your game in reaction to what your opponent is doing (since you can no longer control him as well.).

The big problem I have with people who hate the gi and preach all the time about no gi is that they are usually not good ground fighters due to poor strategy and technical skills.

For instance, natrual athleticism arguably goes further in no gi than it does in gi. Lots of people who are either ex wrestlers that rely on positioning rather than subs, or those who want to do MMA as quickly as possible do not take the time to learn the ground game.

As a result, I believe thats why you find jiu jitsu fighters tend to have better submission abilities than otherwise pure no gi fighters- once again, the same thing can be accomplished either with or without gi and this doesnt mean that there arent more than plenty of people who are sub artists in no gi.

The other are those who do no gi because they dont like getting handled by someone who has better skills with the gi. As a result of this, they only do no gi where footlocks are allowed. All they do is attack the feet, and thats all they know how to do. They dont like to deal with passing the guard, so they avoid it altogether. Problem is that footlocks, while popular and usefull in submission wrestling, are much less popular and much less usefull in MMA competitions.

Take it for what its worth- both sides of the grappling game have their flaws and strengths. For now, I favor the no gi game, but apply the strategy taught in the BJJ game.

[BJJ is 1]

Many Abu-Dahbi champions train the majority of the time with a Gi

[SubGrappler]

Abu Dhabi itself is less than 10 years old. Since this is submission wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was indeed the forerunner when it came to submissions, its only natrual to still see these fighters winning a tournament thats so young.

More and more fighters are beginning to train in straight submissions wrestling without use of the gi. People like Tito Ortiz, Randy Couture, Pablo Pabovich, Jeff Monson and Diego Sanchez dont use a gi very often and yet are rather successfull in grappling and MMA.

I used to believe that somehow the gi could make you a better no gi grappler, but I've looked hard at the facts and results and what is there that you can do WITH the gi that somehow you cannot perform while training no gi that will in fact make your no gi game better?

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira is horrible with the gi, hes world class in no gi. Dean Lister never proved to be spectacular in gi, but is once again world class in no gi.

The only thing Im debating here is that if your sole focus is to improve in no gi grappling, then doing just that and not Brazilian Jiu Jitsu with the gi, is the best option one can choose.

[TJS]

what is there that you can do WITH the gi that somehow you cannot perform while training no gi that will in fact make your no gi game better?

I find it makes your submission defense improve and tighten up..what I mean is with a Gi you cant just jerk your arm out or slide out of an arm bar like you can in sometimes in No-gi. You have to get a good bicep block, knee on the butt..work out the right way. same can be said for triangles, oma platas etc. but on the other hand there are also some submissions that are easier to defend with a Gi like kimuras. It is also going to help buuild your balance since people can control and sweep you easier.

[SubGrappler]

what is there that you can do WITH the gi that somehow you cannot perform while training no gi that will in fact make your no gi game better?

I find it makes your submission defense improve and tighten up..what I mean is with a Gi you cant just jerk your arm out or slide out of an arm bar like you can in sometimes in No-gi.

Defense is harder in gi, offense is harder in no gi. While the gi helps build a defense, the same can be accomplished without the gi just as well. Defense is usually one of the first things to improve as you train your ground game more and more. Also, just because someone escapes an armbar in no gi doesnt mean it wasnt technical, and the same goes for the gi.

Theres nothing you can do to magically improve your no gi game by doing gi (that is, that you cant otherwise do in no gi itself). So, what I am looking for is a definate explanation of how the gi makes the no gi game better.

You have to get a good bicep block, knee on the butt..work out the right way. same can be said for triangles, oma platas etc. but on the other hand there are also some submissions that are easier to defend with a Gi like kimuras. It is also going to help buuild your balance since people can control and sweep you easier.

Developing your balance in reference to sweeps is debatable- wrestlers are notorious for having exceptionally strong bases, and they've never trained steady with a gi.

As I said, I see the gi as a possible training tool, and I use it just as well, but I see no evidence that proves that training with the gi makes you a better no gi grappler than training without the gi in anticipation of the same results.

[BJJ is 1]

I still think people should train in both, especialy since BJJ players usualy compete in both Gi and No-Gi

[SubGrappler]

I definately agree with that concept- I train in both and have had a lot of success in both.

I like the way Jean Jaques Machado put it- there are 3 parts to Jiu Jitsu- gi, no gi, and self defense. If you're missing any of the 3, your game is lacking.