BJJ vs Judo

[Ego Assassin]

Well I guess non of us were there so I couldn't possibly know for sure . But the info cross referenced with info on the samurai suggest that the samurai used a style that included grappling throwing and striking it even shows samurai tripping up horses. I say shows because I believe that old pictures and carvings are more accurate than the written word. This style has always been refered to as Ju Jitsu. In those days the only distinction between styles was no more than a name and a few techniques that each group prefered.

In BJJ now there are schools that teach their competitors to use one specific choke so that they stand out in the eyes of those watching. Everyone knows those chokes too , but they master that one choke so everyone thinks they are doing something different. It's all marketing and the Japanese were no different. In fact these small insignificant details have been past on. The bigger differences came with more distance. The same as if I told a story to one person and then inturn it was told to a hundred. The hundredth person would tell a different story.

[elbows_and_knees]

On the first part thank you for repeating what I said as if you said something different. And on the second who do you train under because you can check my lineage directly. There's me, Luiz Palhares, Rickson Gracie, Helio Gracie, Carlos Gracie and Count Mitsuyo Maeda. Maeda was a former Jujitsu Champion. And Kano subtracted more than he combined.

You can check instructor lineage on www. bjj.org

you can find us on bjj.org too. My coach is a brown belt and there is a link directly to him...

http://bjj.org/a/people/ferguson-david.html

When I say combined, I'm referring to the three styles of jujutsu he studied - tenshin shinyo, kito ryu and one other. One specialized in ground work, another in throws and another in locking, if I remember correctly.

[elbows_and_knees]

That is, after all, my presentation to these discussions. The foundation art to bjj is judo, not a ju-jutsu (it can be argued that judo is a jujutsu, but for these discussions there does need to be a differentiation).

Not really. Judo was created post tokugawa - it is was style created during peacetime. This, by definition, disqualifies it as a koryu style, giving it the 'do' instead of 'jutsu'. So, kano ryu jujutsu is actually kano ryu judo.

[White Warlock]

Agreed, which is why i said it can be argued. I would argue as you did, but others would argue otherwise, as Egoassassin is doing.

[rb]

And generally, their practitioners would not fair well against multiple opponents of 4 or more, unless such practitioner had been doing that style for a while, and had trained for such situations.

I think that can be said of many martial arts. There are strength in numbers. BJJ for SD has the mindset to finish fast. Judo by it's nature goes for a fast finish. A drill I've done is where you are surrounded by 4 or more people who come in sequentially. You have to throw them quickly and address each new threat. This is repeated for a few minutes at a time .

A variation, more joking around is everyone jumps on the centre guy. Facing off experienced grapplers defeat is inevitiable. Less skilled practioners are dispatched at a more managable rate.

The missing part for judoka is the lack of live striking incorporated. Rudiments of striking and weapons are relegated to kata. While kata can be learned very early there is no jump to randori (live sparring) for these techniques.

If judoka are trained under olympic rules, then the following is drilled into their heads:

"Judo has two main elements, the sporting skills of attack and defense and the culture of the sport through, which these skills are performed. The moral code of Judo is politeness, courage, sincerity, self-control, honour, modesty, friendship and respect. In Judo competition, a judoka can be disqualified for deliberately hurting their opponent."

Sporting defense????

Is this likened to TKD tournaments,where a point is awarded, even when a strike is not landed, but shows control???

This clip does sum up how I feel about my clubmates. It's like a family...which constantly throws, strangles, and joint locks each other at every chance.

You've bolded sporting like it is a dirty word. Many sports I'd not want to be on the recieving end of the trained techniques. Kick boxing, boxing, wrestling, pistol/rifle shooting, archery and yes even TKD.

Sporting does not mean two people square off at 25 paces, witnesses in hand and take turns exchanging techniques. Points are awarded for succesful techniques.

Also, yes you can get disqualified for intentionally hurting your opponent. Walking up to your opponent and kicking him straight in the groin is a no no but there is no rule in SD that says I can't do that. Besides, do you deliberately harm your training partners? What I take away from a sports format is that I can apply gripping techniques, evasion, throwing, hold downs and submissions at full force all day long if I want to. At 170 lbs I've escaped from under 300 lb monsters and gone on to sub them. When I started judo I was easily tossed around by 100 lb girls. I see great advantage in these techniques in defeating aggressors. It is safe and repeatable and I know I can and have used it outside the competition format.

Also, judo weighs heavily on the throw, according to the IJF, "When ippon is scored, the fight is over. The referee annouces ippon when in his opinion an applied technique corresponds to the following criteria :

(a) when a contestant, in a controlled movement, throws the other contestant largely on his back with considerable force and speed

(b) when a contestant holds with osaekomi waza (grappling technique) the other contestant who is unable to get away for 25 seconds after the announcement of osaekomi

© when a contestant gives up by tapping twice or more with his hand or foot or says maitta generally as a result of a, shime waza (strangling technique) or kansetsu waza (armlock technique)

(d) when a contestant is incapacitated by a shime waza or kansetsu waza"

Statistically the throw has the majority of wins. You either get thrown cleanly or you don't. There is still a large portion (~25-30% need to look up the numbers) won by the other methods.

Training for competition you don't just throw a person down. You throw and transition to pin or sub. It's all about chain attacks.

If this is the case, then this brings BJJ up a notch closer to Traditional Jujutsu, which by far, is more practical and dangerous being both a striking, kicking, lock, throw, and submission style.

Out of those 5 areas I'd condense it to 3. Striking = kicking. Lock = sub

giving striking, throw, and sub. Striking BJJ is slightly ahead because they are imbedded in nhb mentality. However the training of striking is gained through cross training which a judoka can easily do as well. Throwing, takedowns bjj is one of the worst of the grappling arts. BJJ is ahead for subs in the number of techniques and general integration on the ground. However, judo groundwork is very explosive and quick which is more than enough to deal with most SD situations.

[shogeri]

I still get mixed feelings about this area, since I am involved more in the control and takedown (of all martial arts) accompanied with striking methods.

Since we are only talking about BJJ and Judo, and if we completely restrain ourselves to those techniques, style versus style, and not person versus person, then it comes down to exactly what is being taught in the first place.

If BJJ is indeed a combative form of judo, whereas it is evolved into a more sophisticated form of its predecessor, then indeed it might be the be the better, or more equipped style on the street.

Judo would of course win in the sporting aspect of the question originally put forth in the survey.

However, what we are really doing is pitting the submission holds of BJJ against the the throws of judo.

While learning and practicing jujutsu, what I have learned is that in a moment, a blink of an eye or less, all techniques have a counter technique associated with them. Reflexive training and sensitivity are guiding factors in determining or demonstrating the best response.

It takes longer to determine and train on how to release from a submission technique than a throw. Throws, and or takedowns can be easily reversed. That is perhaps why Ippon are so central to judo.

So I would say that in some respects judo is good at some point, but so is BJJ as well.

[Ego Assassin]

Warlock are you picking on me?

[White Warlock]

Warlock are you picking on me?

lol, just some friendly needling.

[DeadCell]

Style vs Style UFC proved BJJ/Groundfighting is king.

On the streets against an untrained opponent why would it matter whether you strike, throw, or choke him out as long as you eliminate the threat?

Any style is good for self defense and you get back what you put into it.

[BJJ is 1]

I dont know about everyone else but in our BJJ school we use alot of Judo and wrestling take downs anywaybecause we have a Judo Black belt in class and also a wrestling coach some times

So I have to go with BJJ on this one