At what age is one ready for Shodan?

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Besides the obvious knowledge and skills that a shodan should possess, and of course this varies from system to system, I feel a shodan should have the ability to teach what he knows to any age group. I do not feel that a 6-14 year old has the maturity to do this. Another thing that I feel a shodan should be able to do is to defend himself successfully against one or more "average" opponents on the street. This does not mean a UFC/Pride fighter, professional boxer, or numerous other skilled martial artists. Again, a 6-14 year old, IMHO, can't do this. They may be able to mimick the movements, but lack the strength and mindset to be able to do this.

It has been stated many times that a 10 yerar old black belt can defend himself against other 10 year old black belts. That's fine, but in my opinion, a black belt represents the ability to defend himself against an adult also, and I don't know of any 10 year old on the planet that would, in a real life situation, be able to do that without a whole lot of luck on his side.

[italian_guy]

My organization in Italy has 16 years of age as requirement... and I agree.

[24fightingchickens]

...or brown belt kyu for that matter?

Some argue that mental maturity and ability to function as a sempai in the dojo is also a pre-req...

I see very young children running around with brown/black belts...

Thoughts?

Osu.

TS

Any age at which they can meet whatever the requirements for the rank are that the instructor has set. Another person, even a kid, receiving a black belt does not affect me, it does not affect my students, and it does not reflect on me, so I do not care what others do with their ranks. Ranks in karate are largely without transfer value anyhow, as you cannot get a better job, a scholarship, or be considered more qualified for anything else as a result of receiving them. That means that being a 3rd dan is akin to being a 4th level elf in D&D. It is important to me, and that's the only person it is important to.

As for what I believe the requirements for a rank should be, I'd like a shodan to be able to compete in a Shotokan tournament without wetting himself, freezing up, or hurting someone by accident. I'd want solid knowledge of the required kata, solid basic kumite skills, and I'd want him to have 2000 hours of training under me if he started as a beginner, and 500 hours under me if he was a transfer from another school.

I don't like age requirements, because everyone is different. I don't like fixed time requirements, because some people come to class once a month and others train all day long. I think accumulated minutes is more important than accumulated tenure. But then I think of ranks as being purely skill tests and certifications - like recieving a diploma in some other craft or subject matter - up to a particular level. After that, they are a confusing mish-mash of politics, tenure, social status, examination ability, and ability to referee. Really, karate ranks are actually pretty silly, if you ask me, beyond a certain stage of training, because they basically amount to rewards for toeing the company line and expanding the reach of the association rather than actual learning or ability at anything.

I also am not impressed by the practice of expecting students to serve as "seniors." As I have written many times before, I believe that the silly and rather recent so-called tradition of having the senior students function in a leadership capacity is a not a good idea. When I take a class in school, there is a teacher, and there are students. That's it. Anyone there ready to teach who wants to needs to leave already and strike out on his own. They can always come back and play student if they want later on. So, expecting someone, because they have a belt rank, to be a functioning leader is to diminish the very special and unique and quite rare characteristics that comprise leadership ability in human beings.

It is not just something you get through status. Leadership is both a natural talent and a skill as well as a function of personality.

[Zaine]

Its all about the maturity. My school wont let someone who is immature get that high. If they cant handle that responibility then they dont deserve it, no matter how good they are.

[angus88]

In our school, if you're younger than 18, starting at 5th kyu, your belt has a stripe running down the middle indicating "junior." And "juniors" in my school don't teach class, they don't correct adults of any rank, they don't take strikes in Sanchin, they don't do knuckle push-ups and they don't do face contact. In my school it matters substantially if you're a junior or not.

I like it that way. I think it's a joke to think of a 7 year old black belt giving sparring pointers to a 35 year old man!

[Patrick]

I like it that way. I think it's a joke to think of a 7 year old black belt giving sparring pointers to a 35 year old man!

Perhaps, but you said under 18. Would it be the same if it was a 16 year old giving sparring pointers to a 35 year old man? What if it is a 15 year old who has been training with the school for 4 years gives sparring pointers to a 35 year old who has been there for a year?

[angus88]

You have to draw a line somewhere - it's the same argument to ask why a 20 year old with one week before his 21st birthday can't buy a beer. Does he magically mature in a week? Of course not.

For our students, that line is at 18. And no, a 15 year old does not give pointers to a 35 year old in our school, despite the experience level. An Biologically he hasn't earned the right to tell an adult what to do - period. If a correction has to be made, he will tell an adult brown belt or a black belt and they will make the correction.

[Patrick]

An Biologically he hasn't earned the right to tell an adult what to do - period.

"Right"... hmm. That's interesting. So, then, is the 35 year old 1 year adult able to provide pointers to the 15 year old 4 year just because he is 35? If so, he hasn't done anything to earn the right except turn 18, I imagine? It would seem that knowledge gained within your school under the age of 18 doesn't receive much respect. Let's say the 35 year old asks the 15 year old for feedback, is the 15 year old forbidden from doing so?

[shogeri]

Below 15, I lean toward a junior level black belt. Though technically the same as the other black belt, experience, wisdom, and knowledge of the art are crucial at that or any higher level.

As an instructor, I can give out a black belt to whomever I believe represents what it means to hold such rank. Thus, age doesn't matter in the long run.

[karate kid 1]

IM TEN AND ACCORDING TO MY SENSEI ILL BE BLACK BELT WEN IM TWELVE IM NOW AN 8KYU