Western(American) or Eastern(Asian) training?

[Kajukenbopr]

wow, took me so long to answer to this :

I think its conflicting before when you train for push ups for example, you train to develop one kind of movement which is used for short periods, repeatedly, with effort.

in Chinese excercises, the strength used is minimum but sustained for long periods of time. These mvements are not necessarily the same, allowing for more movement.

Also, true internal excercises require for a stress free body- by doing weight lifting and crunches, you create stress in the body again making it more difficult to make progress.

[elbows_and_knees]

Western training is the normal kind of excercise everyone knows: push-ups,abs workouts. weight training,running.These excersises require extra weight and can cause the person doing them to tire out rather fast.

 

Eastern training would be excercises like Tai chi, Chi Kung, meditation, Ba Dua Jin....etc-Some styles from Japan only required for the student to train with a sword and meditate to achieve their physical condition. These kind of excercises do not necessarily need extra weight and can be practiced for longer periods without tiring too much.

 

Which do you practice and why?

 

Do you feel it is effective for your martial arts training or do you wish you could achieve more?

that's actually not entirely true. The chinese external styles did weight training. So did the okinawans and japanese. The chinese use stone locks - they looked like an older version og the kettle bell. The shuai chiao guys use pulleys with weight attached to train their throws. They also use the rock pole.

Okinawans and japanese used filled vases and various other things.

As for which I do, I do western. We've had way more techniqcal advances now and a lot of the stuff they did back in the day is outdated and / or proven wrong. Prime example - people say stance training is for increasing strength... This is very false.

that said, this isn't a question of western vs eastern training - they lift weight in the east. judoka, mma guys, etc. this is modern training, and hence this question is more of traditional or modern, not east or west...

[elbows_and_knees]

actually, I've trained in both:

American Training when I started in Kajukenbo which allowed me to get muscles and lose excess weight. But I had to keep training to keep it up.

Chinese Training- Chi Kung. I was able to get my body in far better shape and keep it that way. my reflexes are better and I dont stiffen up after training.

Chinese training worked best for me but I'd like to know what other people have to say about their training.

as stated above, chinese training is far more than just chi kung. That said, external and internal training are not conflicting. This is why they did both internal and external - they balance eachother out. you are actually talking about the same thing in your comparison with pushups to chinese training. Stance training is an endurance exercise. there is definitely effort involved, though. Pushups are also an endurance exercise. And yes, they require effort. When it comes to external exercises, you basically have three types:

endurance

strength

mass

some people may count limb and body conditioning as an exercise, so that can be a fourth.

For internal, you have

qigong

neigong

basically, the qi building exercises you are likely referring to and breathing/meditation exercises.

If you stiffened up after training, that wasn't the result of external training - your training was flawed somewhere. that's what the problem was. There are HUGE bodybuilders who can do the splits. I myself am a big guy and I never stiffen up.

[Kajukenbopr]

Actually, stance training does improve strength but if you're not patient enough to wait to see the results, they wont make themselves evident to you.

you can say you dont stiffen up, but weights are designed to make ur muscles contract and keep that shape, even if you dont realize it, you get tense.

you said this type of training has been proven wrong? Then what are cientifics saying in England? They are saying people in China stay healthier than us because they practice excercises which keep them more relaxed which makes them stronger as well as healthier.

Sure, they dont grow big muscles, but theirs are easier to keep and they dont need to tense up to develop them.....Also, these muscles are easier to use than the ones develop by weights.

[Kajukenbopr]

Asians use, or traditionally use weights for everyday chores, that helps prove to themselves that their training is working - some may use them to develop some speed, but its not the whole base of their training.

you may not believe it works,but it does. Like I said, you have to try it to see for yourself.

[sdargie]

Rather than set definitions by geography which don't accurately specify between external and internal workouts, why not think in terms of yin (internal arts) and yang (external arts)? You need to do those yin exercises (breathing, meditation) so that your yang (striking, kicking, physical toughness) is more focused and precise. You need to do yang exercises so that you completely exhaust your energy and learn how to find that yin on demand (endurance, stamina, mental toughness).

[Ryokeen]

Deffinently eastern. I have and always will think bulk is dumb, and no one can tell em differently . Why lift all those wieghts when you were blessed by a working body?

[Hudson]

Just a retort, not trying to convince you of anything:

Why is it that westerners are automatically bulky?

I think this whole east-west thing is sort of a misnomer.

Good bulk is useful! It's muscular development, not just uncessary pounds. And no, it doesnt inhibit movement.

Our bodies are created initially to eat, sleep, and live, that's about it. If you do something as demanding as martial arts, your body will adapt to those demands to a certain degree. Lifting weights is just as natural as martial arts, you demand something of yourself, and your body compensates and makes you stronger. Putting MA and Weightlifting/Strength Training together only enhances you, it certainly doesn't break or worsen your "natural condition".

If we're to assume that weightlifting isn't natural then neither is martial arts, dancing, paying taxes, watching TV, etc.

And I hope most of you aren't getting the idea that all weightlifting martial artists aim to look or perform like Arnold Schwarzenegger - there is a BIG gap between what you are born with and professional bodybuilders/powerlifters, and there are plenty of reasonable healthy points inbetween.

So, yeah, I stick with my original answer, both, and yes they will work harmoniously.

[elbows_and_knees]

Deffinently eastern. I have and always will think bulk is dumb, and no one can tell em differently . Why lift all those wieghts when you were blessed by a working body?

strength gtraining DOES NOT have to build mass. As stated earlier in this thread, there are several avenues you can take with weight training

endurance

strength

mass

of the three, mass is the only one that will inherently put any significant size on you. Also, bulky does not equal slow. Are you faster than the average heavyweight boxer? Are you a better fighter? If not, then that is one proof for my point, as most pro boxers lift weights.

[elbows_and_knees]

Asians use, or traditionally use weights for everyday chores, that helps prove to themselves that their training is working - some may use them to develop some speed, but its not the whole base of their training.

you may not believe it works,but it does. Like I said, you have to try it to see for yourself.

they use weights more than that. google stone locks, and also look up shuai chiao training - they use the pulley and rock pole - both are weight training exercises. They use them for strength building as well as speed.

EDIT:

I did some searching for you. Here's an excerpt about weight training with locks. the descripion they gave is one of endurance type training, but it's weight training nontheless. from http://www.shaolin.nl/history.html"

"The incredible feats of the Shaolin kungfu is the result of the incredible tempering. Just as the sharpness of a treasured sword comes from diligent whetting, the fragrance of the plum blossom is the result of undergoing the bitter winter. The kungfu monks of the Shaolin Temple are very particular about their exercise in the inclement cold of winter and the hottest day of the summer. Whatever the weather, they are seen practicing hard when the rooster crows in the morning, and they return to their bedroom when the moon is already up in the evening. They devoted all their energy to the hard training of the basic kungfu. During the snowy depth of winter, they would wear nothing on the upper part of the body while climbing the mountain. Along the 1000m long mountains path, they jump and crawl down. Under the scorching sun of mid-summer, they would be fully dressed and jump onto the pile tops, and they would lift the 50kg stone locks for countless times, until sweating allover. "

this is about strength training in okinawan styles:

http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/training_stones.htm

I also have an old bookmark to an okinawan site that has pics of people back in the day doing some of these exercises - I'm trying to find it:

" The ancient implement most similar to the Pangai Noon/Uechi-Ryu training stones is the "Nageri Game" or "Kan" ('gripping jars.') These are not made of stone but traditionally were earthenware jars with a pronounced lip at the neck of the jar. The lip would be grasped with thumb tucked so that the medial aspect of the thumb was touching the lip of the jar. The remaining four fingers would then grip the jar in a claw like fashion.

"The jars would be used in daily training in Sanchin training and a small amount of water or sand would be added periodically for progressive resistance. The use of "Kan" remains unchallenged in its supremacy for training the "Bushiken" ('coiled thumb') which is employed frequently in Pangai Noon/Uechi-Ryu combative application; however, there is no rival to the stones for building staggering finger strength. "

This site has a pic of someone using a rock pole, and also mentions the pulley:

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/training.html