A Scary Thought

[UseoForce]

I had a young relative approach me and tell me he was going to start a martial for self defense. Now, this art, in my opinion, is terrible for self defense purposes. Just accept that for the purpose of discussion. I won't mention the name of the art because I don't want to be accused of bashing it. My relative is big and strong for his age, and he could have gotten some great self-defense advice from his father, a police officer. My question is, would he have been better off working with his father than practicing a totally non-self-defense martial art? Can martial arts training make you less able to defend yourself by overriding natural instincts and tendancies to use your strengths? I know, its disturbing, and I'm unsure of my own stance.

[Sam]

I would say yes it can be detrimental - but no it isnt always detrimental.

Training in an MA that has no emphasis at all on SD would not be as good as training for self defense with a police officer - IMHO.

Also an MA if taught wrongly can override your instincts.... however.... if you look at the arguement like this you'll find that is unlikely.....

In a fight if you have no previous experience all the teaching you may have had will go out the window. So the only way to stop this is by getting experience - i.e. training for self defense, this way you learn to override your instinct and actually use your training. The suggestion that the training can be of detriment is logically wrong - ie. if you are training for self defense - you are putting yourself in a sitation [controlled] to defend yourself against an opponent with varying degrees of resistivity. By training like this you learn what works - so it is practically impossible to learn the wrong thing in this situation as it would be shown not to work...... does that argument make sense?

Im not saying it is impossible for a SD MA to teach the wrong things and actually put you in a worse situation - just saying its unlikely.

Also training in an MA that doesnt concentrate on SD at all will probably not replace your instincts when it comes to defending yourself.

IMHO you are better off training in MAs which have some sort of a self defense aspect to their training.

[italian_guy]

I don't think there are arts which are totally useless in self defence. Although there are martial arts that teach you how to defend yourself faster then others. Arts like tai chi or aikido where you need years to find benefit in self defence or arts like JKD, BJJ, krav Maga, Muay Thai or kickboxing where those benefit are faster. Depends from your approch to MA, if your goal is self defence you must choose your art accordingly.

This is my 2 eurocents anyhow.

[UseoForce]

One of the things that bothers me is that, because he is very young, if his instructor tells him something is good for self defense, well he's a BLACK BELT! HE KNOWS EVERYTHING! I don't know if a young child would be able to discern between what is good for self-defense and what isn't the way you or I would.

[Sam]

But also he's a young child..... self defense isnt really the same for him - unlikely to be able to defend against an adult, whereas even well trained at a young age fights are rarely serious - as they get older they will be able to work out what is effective for themselves. but i agree a lot of people accept techniques and ideas because the person that told them is a BB.... or a Master or whatever [see post on hero worship in general martial arts]

[ninjanurse]

And...self defense is more than physical.

[UseoForce]

And...self defense is more than physical.

Sam Said:

But also he's a young child..... self defense isnt really the same for him - unlikely to be able to defend against an adult, whereas even well trained at a young age fights are rarely serious - as they get older they will be able to work out what is effective for themselves.

I agree, but many instructors don't see this. Teaching punching and kicking to a young child probably won't help much in a self-defense scenario.

Yes, but I don't think his dojo is sending the right mental message.

[judoguy]

Without question certain martial arts can be detrimental to self defense. This is especially the case in certain arts that advocate strange and unatural body positions and the movements are not freeflowing. When you choose a striking art you must pick one that has freeflowing movements and not stiff moves. STAY AWAY from styles that teach you "if his does that then you do this" in a striking situation. That isn't realistic because in a striking situation the action is unpredictable and it's impossible to accurately judge time and distance to catch his wrist and apply lock A. Or block and do B. The martial art that teaches responses that are efficient, natural, and flow best with the chaos of a real fight are the best to choose from.

That is why arts like Muay thai and kyokushin are so successful. They don't teach trained responses to certain attacks, but instead focus on foot work, proper blocking and combination striking in natural, freeflowing movements.

A grappling situation is different and you can train for "if your opponent does this then you do that". In a grappling situation the space is closed between the two parties and you are basically fighting to keep or establish position. In a sense it's more like a chess match. There are certain techniques to escape from what your opponent is trying to do to you. For example the way to escape a person trying to do a kimura lock from the bottom/guard position is to spin out and do an armbar. So in essense your teacher can tell you "if the guy does this, then you do that".

And then you have the problem of the concept of SELF DEFENSE in and of itself. A true martial art has to be both offensive AND defensive options, not one or the other. Self defense is implying that you are a victim and you will train as such. But in certain conflicts it is necessary to go on the offensive. Just my 2 cents.

[Sam]

Also even with grappling you can never repeat all the scenarios - in self defense someone may end up doing something either (a) youve never thought of (b) you werent expecting.... or just do it in a way your not used to.... just like there are LOADS of ways of punching so i agree that its useless saying "if he punches do this" because a punch cna come in so many forms.

[judoguy]

Also even with grappling you can never repeat all the scenarios - in self defense someone may end up doing something either (a) youve never thought of (b) you werent expecting.... or just do it in a way your not used to.... just like there are LOADS of ways of punching so i agree that its useless saying "if he punches do this" because a punch cna come in so many forms.

Such as? If we are locked up in a clinch or on the ground grappling his options are much more limited then if we were in a stand up striking situation. He can go for a weapon, try to throw or take me down, try to escape, or try to strike. But that's about it. Those responses are much easier to prepare for then a open space striking situation.