greek influence on karate

[Skeptic 2004]

Thanks for the info AnonymousOne. I'm always interested in learning about old indigenous fighting systems outside of the karate/wushu sphere. I asked about Hawai'ian lua to see if there might have been any common ancient source or transmission, but I guess back then interaction between peoples of the Polynesian triangle was virtually non-existent (thanks to this little puddle of water called the Pacific Ocean). I don't doubt that the Maori are not to be trifled with. My impression of the different island cultures I've encountered since being in Hawai'i (Maori, Hawai'ian, Samoan, Fijian, etc.) is that they all have very strong, vicious warrior backgrounds. Unfortunately, my screening of "Whale Rider" revealed that the movie did not focus solely on the warrior aspect of Maori culture (and of the two taiaha "kobudo" kata scenes I saw, one of the characters was using a pool cue as a taiaha, though it was still interesting to watch). I suppose it makes sense since the protagonist is a 12 year old girl, though I would have loved to have seen more of the warrior aspect.

As an aside, what got me interested in learning about lua was a display in the Bishop Museum here in Honolulu. There was a painting of King Kamehameha the Great (first chieftain to unite all the Hawai'ian islands under one rule) holding four spears (three in one hand, one in the other). A British doctor on one of Capt Cook's (first westerner to discover and explore Hawai'ian islands in the 1700's) expeditions wrote about a weapons demonstration the king had put on for them. Six guys stood around the king holding spears, and he ordered them to throw them at him simultaneously. He caught three in one hand, and deflected the other three with his own spear. The doctor made a reference to Kamehameha being a master at lua, the indigenous Hawai'ian fighting arts, and the painting in the museum was a recreation of the doctor's notes.

Getting us back on the topic of Greek influence...uh...I asked earlier in another thread about Pankration, which I understand to be an ancient Greek combat system used in olympic and gladiatorial combat. Anyone have any more information on that (a book would be best)? And to preempt, no more information on "modern" pankration please (all the links and information I've been referred to talks about modern pankration in the same context of submission wrestling and BJJ which for the moment I am not interested in. Info about ANCIENT pankration is desired).

Shorin Ryuu does raise a valid point in that in terms of modernization and culture, the East at the time was ahead of the West which begs the question of "reverse" transmission. That is, in light of this info, do you think there might have been an Eastern influence or cross pollination, however so slight, on ancient Greek/Assyrian/Roman combat systems? Shorin Ryuu argues that a relationship between India and ancient Greece may have solely been trade based, but depending on the duration of that trade, I would not rule out entirely an influence one way or another on one or the other's fighting system.

To stretch a little further, I'd also like to ask about the influence of African fighting systems. The Egyptians and Romans had their hands full dealing with the Ethiopians, which makes me wonder if their indigenous fighting system may have influenced however so slightly ancient Egyptian or Roman combat arts.

I know...I'm all over the place on this one...

[Dark Shogun]

Thnks guys. I've had the same problem in that all the info I've been able to find is on modern pankration. There is not much on the ancient stuff. Maybe If I could find some techniques which exist in pankration and Chinese MA, karate etc.

I suppose looking at the big picture everything influenced everything, but I really am looking at major influences.

I'm also intrested in philsophical influences. I've found that western and eastern philosophy(ie not religon) are more similat than different. Could the ideas of Aristotle have made their way to China or even Okinawa? They were perserved in the middle east for some time.

[AnonymousOne]

Thanks for the info AnonymousOne. I'm always interested in learning about old indigenous fighting systems outside of the karate/wushu sphere. I asked about Hawai'ian lua to see if there might have been any common ancient source or transmission, but I guess back then interaction between peoples of the Polynesian triangle was virtually non-existent (thanks to this little puddle of water called the Pacific Ocean). I don't doubt that the Maori are not to be trifled with. My impression of the different island cultures I've encountered since being in Hawai'i (Maori, Hawai'ian, Samoan, Fijian, etc.) is that they all have very strong, vicious warrior backgrounds. Unfortunately, my screening of "Whale Rider" revealed that the movie did not focus solely on the warrior aspect of Maori culture (and of the two taiaha "kobudo" kata scenes I saw, one of the characters was using a pool cue as a taiaha, though it was still interesting to watch). I suppose it makes sense since the protagonist is a 12 year old girl, though I would have loved to have seen more of the warrior aspect.

As an aside, what got me interested in learning about lua was a display in the Bishop Museum here in Honolulu. There was a painting of King Kamehameha the Great (first chieftain to unite all the Hawai'ian islands under one rule) holding four spears (three in one hand, one in the other). A British doctor on one of Capt Cook's (first westerner to discover and explore Hawai'ian islands in the 1700's) expeditions wrote about a weapons demonstration the king had put on for them. Six guys stood around the king holding spears, and he ordered them to throw them at him simultaneously. He caught three in one hand, and deflected the other three with his own spear. The doctor made a reference to Kamehameha being a master at lua, the indigenous Hawai'ian fighting arts, and the painting in the museum was a recreation of the doctor's notes.

Getting us back on the topic of Greek influence...uh...I asked earlier in another thread about Pankration, which I understand to be an ancient Greek combat system used in olympic and gladiatorial combat. Anyone have any more information on that (a book would be best)? And to preempt, no more information on "modern" pankration please (all the links and information I've been referred to talks about modern pankration in the same context of submission wrestling and BJJ which for the moment I am not interested in. Info about ANCIENT pankration is desired).

Shorin Ryuu does raise a valid point in that in terms of modernization and culture, the East at the time was ahead of the West which begs the question of "reverse" transmission. That is, in light of this info, do you think there might have been an Eastern influence or cross pollination, however so slight, on ancient Greek/Assyrian/Roman combat systems? Shorin Ryuu argues that a relationship between India and ancient Greece may have solely been trade based, but depending on the duration of that trade, I would not rule out entirely an influence one way or another on one or the other's fighting system.

To stretch a little further, I'd also like to ask about the influence of African fighting systems. The Egyptians and Romans had their hands full dealing with the Ethiopians, which makes me wonder if their indigenous fighting system may have influenced however so slightly ancient Egyptian or Roman combat arts.

I know...I'm all over the place on this one...

I guess a lot can only be put down to the mysteries in the sands of time.

Of course there are many that believe the world only had one land mass at one time and this may account for how ideas were shared.

I have no doubt that MA are alot older than we know

[Dark Shogun]

Hey, the Mongols had much contact with the Greeks and Romans. They could have taken MA with them to China and Japan.

On the other hand I don't think that when the Mongols attacked Japan they would have had much time to chat with the defending Samurai and teach them MA.

Mongol MA could have influenced Chinese MA when the Hans invaded China. Thus Greek and Roman MA could have influenced karate that way.

[GrrrArg]

I was thinking about this a little while back (in more general terms) and came to the conclusion that if you look hard enough, you will find links everywhere.

At the end of the day, were all human and where limited to what we can and cant do movement wise with our bodies, so similarity in fighting arts is bound to occur, regardless of whether there was actually any cross pollination of ideas.

And to narrow it down further, you would pressume that the greater exponents of these various arts would try and find the most efficient method of doing what they do. This agin makes it slightly more likely that they will cover common ground.

You could argue that the first cave man to slap another one for stealing his cave women was the sole inventor of karate, kempo, TKD, BJJ......etc:

Im not trying to say that the greeks didnt have any influence (there evidence to suggest they did) but you justneed to b careful about any leaps and assumptions that are made.

[Ben32]

Im not trying to say that the greeks didnt have any influence (there evidence to suggest they did) but you justneed to b careful about any leaps and assumptions that are made.

Its funny because just the other day I was reading on this Greek dating singles that someone was trying to convince everyone Greeks had influence on karata, I thought he was a maniac untill I read this post..

[Shorin Ryuu]

I for one do not buy into it. I think it is too far of a stretch (as per my earlier post).