No respect for age!

[italian_guy]

But still you dont have to bee stupid, since your not going to be any quicker you must mor relay on your brains.

This is what I always trying to do anyway.

About telling them things this is not very easy on a sparring session but ok maybe if I feel they are not doing things properly I can do as you suggested...

[jarrettmeyer]

I am 26. I always ask to spar one of the senior black belts (he's 46), not as a challenge, but because he teaches me more in 3 minutes than a few hours of sparring some of the other colored belts. But there are also those in my dojo who don't like to spar against him, because if you do actually get a hit, you kinda know he let you get it.

Asking someone who is older and more experienced to spar is not always a challenge. Sometimes it is. As one of the young guys the best I can do is remind you that we are all here (or at the dojo) to learn from each other. Sometimes that means learning our craft. Other times that may mean learning respect. Sometimes respect is taught by watching others. Other times it must be beaten into place.

[karsh44]

^^Agree.

I would also like to mention that for some less experienced martial artists, lack of skill can equate "harder" with "faster" or "better". I know b/c I was that way An inexperienced student might not know how to move fast without punching/kicking harder. Combine that with desire to spar someone better to learn, and you can get these "challenges".

I think a lot more is probably cockiness though. Just my $.02

[ninjanurse]

Meet their aggression with equial force, but greater skill. Use your experience to teach them the right lessons. Holding back does not show them a true picture of you as a Martial Artist, and might be hindering the emotional development that they need to more fully appreciate those that train with them.

Nothing more needs to be said. Well done!

[cathal]

Italian Guy, 43 is not old.

Anyway, I think that while attitude is a major factor here, it is a common story that many of you more experienced practitioners see. Perhaps even more as you train more, and have more younger people join up and train.

To me, it seems a natural phenomenon. It is only natural for a young man/woman to attempt to prove themself against the older, more experienced person. It can be seen as a right of passage, or life test. As we get older and stronger we will always attempt to take over from where our parents have been. The challenges in a fight, for example, would be testing the waters to see if it is time to take over.

Most of the time, it seems from this very informative thread, that the older generations are still in control. No surprise there.

[shotochem]

I think it will always be the same, when you are what you are there will be challengers, however I have found that if you make them look silly this works much better than injury. For instance, if they are going all out your experienced enough you can see their stuff coming and you simply step out of the way and let them fall on their face etc. or side step and execute a technique that was so obvious no one could miss it.

That is usually the best way. I've done that little side step and block many times followed by that surprised look on my opponents face while they stare up at me dumbfounded on their back.

Young and overly aggressive individuals rarely have the patience or poise not to attack recklessly. Us more experienced elder statesmen tend to read and react with better timing.

[swdw]

Sigh . . .

I guess few people know MA history or talk to older people any more.

This is NOT a current phenomena, this does NOT only happen in western countries.

I'de bet that few people here have heard the expression "Hammering the nail back down", and even fewer probably know where it came from. The only people in this forum I'd be willing to bet money on knowing the full meaning of this expression, I could count on one hand. Shorinryu sensei is one of them.

This expression comes from the orient. It was used in Okinawa and Japan.

What it refers to is a student becoming full of himself and who starts letting his ego get in the way. They equate it to a nail in a floorboard starting to work up from the wood. If it works its way high enough, it can injure people. So the only solution is to "Hammer it back down".

This hammering can be done several ways. Initially, the Sensei will gently (a relative term here), point out the error of the persons ways. Shorinryu Sensei's idea of dumping them on their butt is an example of this. I know another Sensei that would just reach out and slap the student or put them on the floor with every opening and give a running critique while sparring with the offending individual. This can be very humiliating.

If this doesn't work, you go to the next level. Pair them off with someone they think is beneath them, that you KNOW can easily handle them. Tell that person to make sure the offender knows he's been beaten. If he gets a couple of lumps in the process, all the better. The more times he has to pick himself up off the floor, the more effective the lesson too.

The last step can no longer be used these days because of liability issues. Remember though that this step was taken to protect the other students. The Sensei would square off with the individual, then only fight defensively for a while to humiliate the person. At some point in the "match" the Sensei would lay into them. Broken noses and other equivalent injuries would often be the result of this step. The student either left or drastically altered their attitude. Problem solved. Just remember that this was after trying less brutal steps proved fruitless.

So this is NOT a new problem and there is actually a tradition in how to handle it. Steps 1 and 2 will fix the problem in abou 99% of the people. Step 3 in modern society is to kick them out of the school as they are not worth the liability.

Another option is to bring someone else I in at step 1 or 2 that you can trust. I was asked to do this on 3 different occasions by friends who had a problem student. Usually it was to deal with a person that was very close to my rank so they couldn't use the excuse that the only reason they were beaten was because of the huge ranking difference between them and their Sensei.

Good luck to the "fossils" and don't be afraid to use a hammer when needed.

[jarrettmeyer]

To me, it seems a natural phenomenon. It is only natural for a young man/woman to attempt to prove themself against the older, more experienced person. It can be seen as a right of passage, or life test. As we get older and stronger we will always attempt to take over from where our parents have been. The challenges in a fight, for example, would be testing the waters to see if it is time to take over.

I agree. Do you think that there is both a respectful way and a disrespectful way to present this challenge? Or should a younger belt simply not ask. I love the lessons that I get from sparring. My sempai is amazing. Do you, as an the instructor, respect the intent of the student? Are there times when intent is not clear?

[cathal]

I think there is, just ask for the assistance of the older, more experienced fighter.

Do you, as an the instructor, respect the intent of the student? Are there times when intent is not clear?

I assist whenever I can, but I'm not a full instructor just yet. I think that if it is done with respect the more experienced fighter would accept that, and move forward. I'm interested in hearing what you other instructors out there feel about this.

[scottnshelly]

Sometimes the opposite can be true also. Sometimes an elder belt will not respect a younger - yet more experienced and higher ranked - Martial Artist.

When i was a kid - about 15 - my father opened a dojo. he ran the place, but i taught all the classes. I was a 2nd Dan, 1st Dan and brown belt at the time. We had a gentleman in our class that had been coming with his two daughters since we opened the place. We had known him and his family from other schools in the area. He got up to blue belt with us. his daughter was my age, meaning he was considerably more older than me.

Anyway, one night i was sparring him and he brought it. he was hitting with everything he had, and it was obvious to everyone. no one stopped, for one because i was the Instructor and for two because they knew i could handle myself. he finally pushed my button when he delivered a full contact scoop kick to the groin (a rule that was very clearly established before any sparring). i shook it off and turned on the power. I didn't go all out, crazy, anger-blinded full strength; but he wanted to play rough so we did. that rounded lasted longer than most and we dotted each other's eyes. it ended in fun, but i think he had malicious intents of 'showing up the Instructor'.

Was i wrong for disrespecting an elder, or was he for challenging the Instructor? or was i wrong for teaching that young?

I've yet to experience the disrespect of a challenge from a 'young kid' as i'm not old enough yet. one day though i hope to be disrespected with the best of em...