knee pain?

[Goju_boi]

some time ago last year I was practicing my moves at home.I did a rear leg round kick and after extending it i kept extending my shins back and forth kinda like chun li from street fighter.anyways after trying to be all cool I stopped to go on the other side but before I did that my knee started hurting and I've been feeling it ever since(Sometimes it comes and goes).But not too long ago i got an x-ray for something else but decided to get one for my leg 2 since i was already there.When the results came in there was nothing apparently wrong with my knee.Well wut I want to know is wut gives?And can me being flat footed have anything to do with it?......thanx in advance

[ravenzoom]

Well knee problems can be confusing. I destroyed my knee when I was in high school and since then it has always been weaker than the other one. However, I rarely notice the difference except when (this will sound funny) when I'm in those ski lifts which brings you to the top of the mountain (don't know the name). In those it's like I have a knife going in my knee, and I don't know why but it just hurts. It does occur once in a while (rarely) while playing hockey or another physical sport that I feel its weakness but seldom, it's really those ski lifts and when I'm skiing that I feel it the most. So perhaps you stretched something in your knee back then that has not healed perfectly and you can sometimes feel it. That would be my suggestion to your problem. This may last forever, or maybe with time go, It's hard to say.

[vertigo]

YES, being flat footed could be related to it. I know that in my freshman year of high school, during basketball practices, I started experiencing a lot of knee pain during running. Went to a podiatrist, and sure enough, flat feet (and something else wrong with my foot.. anyway, ended up throwing a lot of pressure on my knee). I have been wearing orthodics in my shoes for the past 5 years to keep this in check. I've never had any problems as far as karate is concerned though.

You may want to look into the flat foot aspect of that, if no other reason for the knee pain is available, or you haven't had it checked (i.e. you simply just noticed that you have flat feet).

Just my thoughts and experience on the matter. Good luck getting your knee pain resolved.

[CrippledFingers]

you might not be pivoting your foot properly.

Lots ofpeople pivot the foot but the reasoning behind it is for... well mainly power but also it helps protect your knees. You gotta pivot you whole leg (I don't know how much sence that makes). It takes alot of hip flexibility which is a huge weakness for everyone, espechaly if you started the martial arts any time after puberty.

[Skeptic 2004]

From what you've described, there are two possbilities. One, you need another x-ray and a second opinion because your doc missed something. Or, you might suffer from a minor knee injury that won't show up on x-rays. You might want to be a little more descriptive about your symptoms in order to get a specific response.

How you walk may actually make the problem better or worse for your knee. When you take a step, the foot naturally supinates; that is, it rolls to the outer edge of your foot giving your foot the ability to lift the heel, roll along the ball of your foot and lift the toes. Experiment: try taking a step by putting all of your weight on the inside of your foot...it's a lot harder. The problem comes when you put too much weight on the outside of your foot, or (for lack of a more scientific term that I know of) over-supinate. This places too much stress on the ankle and outside edge of the knee resulting in a little condition I'm currently suffering from called iliotibial band syndrome - the iliotibial band is a band that runs from the upper thigh muscles, along the outerside of the knee joint, to the shin just below the knee (I think...don't remember where it stops exactly). Iliotibial band syndrome occurs when this band rubs against the side of the knee and becomes irritated and inflamed. There's no loss of stability or strength, but it feels like someone took an icepick and stabbed you in the knee with it. It isn't painful enough to make you cry, but I've screamed a few curse words when I've had to take the stairs (it doesn't hurt when your knee is flexed...but it man oh man when it comes time to bend your knees...OUCH).

Overpronation/hyperpronation (walking on the inside of your feet) throws your knee out of alignment with your hip causing pain in the feet, possible joint problems with ankle, and possible back problems later if uncorrected. When your knee is thrown out of alignment with your hip, there tends to be alot of unequal lateral loading on the patella tendon as you walk which may end up causing patella tendonitis. I've never suffered from this condition, but if your tendons are inflamed, I can imagine that bending them is unpleasant. People who walk pigeon toed tend to overpronate. If you work out a lot on hardwood floors bare foot and do a lot of jumping up and down on them (uh...sounds like anyone who's practiced MA), the loading on your feet may actually flatten the natural arches causing a loss of arch support and the flattening of the foot. Flattening of the feet causes hyperpronation when you walk which leads to all the nasty stuff I've already talked about. Hyperpronation is actually pretty normal for people who work on their feet for long periods of time, and most often the worse thing people feel is discomfort. Arch supports easily correct the problem. However, the nasty stuff I talked about is very possible.

If you're flat-footed like you say, you probably hyperpronate. But, if for some reason that's not the case or you somehow compensate by "over-supinating" that's bad too.

Uh...I guess working in a shoe store for 2 years actually came in handy for once but I'm not really sure I answered your question. I guess in short, yeah, being flat footed may have something to do with it.

[Gumbi]

Have you considered an MRI? Most knee injuries dont have fractures involved, since the ligaments aer usually more likely to rupture before the bones break.

The knee is the largest and most complex joint in the body, and its held together by 4 key ligaments. Any damage to these ligaments wont show up on an X-ray and an MRI would be needed to assess the injury.

[Sparkey]

Well, I'll tell you about my knee experience. One day I was practicing side thrust kicks into a heavy hanging bag. While the bag was swinging a little bit, I attempted to lay a hard kick right into the sweet spot of the bag and send it FLYING into the atmosphere. Well, that was the intention. My kick was well formed and would have been powerful, but it was badly timed. My leg was at full exention and the bag was swinging toward my foot at that second. When the bag hit my foot, since my leg was extended, my knee popped backward instead of forward, hyper-extending my leg. No, it wasn't gross or anything. If you were watching me, you wouldn't have seen anything yucky. My knee hurt and I iced it and rested it for about a week. There was no huge swelling or bruising or anything.

After a week went by, I went back into class. I was doing Zenchin Kotai, techniques with movement, back and forth. I was stepping into Hokodachi with a downward block. Easy, right? Well, one of those steps tweaked my knee just right and I hit the ground in a lot of pain. I broke down and went to the doctor. He sent me for x-ray and MRI. I was then diagnosed with a complete tear of my Anterior Cruciate Ligament . Which meant that my knee was now very unstable for lateral movements and twisting, pivoting movements.

So, I decided to get surgery to repair the ligament which involved using the tendon from my patella (knee cap) and using that to graft where the ACL used to be. The recovery time was a year. NO martial arts for 10 months, Careful slow Kata practice after 10 months for 3 months. No impact class of basics and air kicking, punching ect... I couldn't do any ippons or sparring for a year and a half after the surgery. It's been 2 years now, and I'm doing great. VERY MINOR knee pain sometimes, but I don't let it stop me.

The upshot of this story is 1) You can have a bad knee injury from kicking a bag. 2) it's better to have your knee checked with an MRI just to know if there's any damage.

Be good to your knees!

[karatekid1975]

I'll move this to the health forum. You'll get much more help there

Anyways, I have a "bum" knee, also. I injured it kicking a heavy bag. I went one way, my knee went the other It only took two weeks to heal (and two more weeks of modified training with a brace). But I sometimes still feel a little pain (depending on what I'm doing for how long). I never got it checked, though.

So I would suggest getting it checked before it becomes a major problem.

[Goju_boi]

Well i dunno wut an MRI is?And when this happened I was kicking air.Also as for the symptoms when I bend my knee I can feel and hear a strong grinding sensation.Anyways it's only in my right knee so if it were my flat feet wouldnt both hurt.I have also noticed that my shoes tend to wear out on the outside edges more than the other parts.

[Skeptic 2004]

if it were my flat feet wouldnt both hurt

Typically but not necessarily. Depending on how you walk, you might slightly favor one side over the other causing unequal loading. For example, for some reason I tend to slightly favor my right side (my right shoes are always the first to show signs of wear, my right leg is always the first one that gets tired when I run, etc). You might also have some people with the freakish limbs (an arm or leg that is maybe an inch or two longer than the other)

I can feel and hear a strong grinding sensation

Where? On the outside of the knee? It's perfectly normal for the outside edges of the shoes to be worn out (after all, your foot naturally supinates...or at least tries to if you're flat footed). But, if the outsides edges are excessively worn out compared to the rest of the shoe, then judging by this symptom and your gait you MAY have ITB. It bothers me on my right knee only as well. The thing is, I can feel the grinding sensation at times, but I sure as heck don't hear anything.

I'm going to go with the advice everyone else has given: Get an MRI to check it isn't something else.