Different worlds, different styles?

[Beer-monster]

Hi guys. Just wondering what every ones opinion of the different styles is as due to various circumstances and geographical changes I have had to change karate style twice (shokukai to wado to shoto), so I've been thinking of this a lot.

 

So what's your take on the style gap. Do you see Karate as essential the same martial art and that the only differences are superficial or more a matter of how you train rather than what you train.

 

Or do you think of the styles as world apart and completely seperate, such as preying mantis kung fu is from wing chun kung fu.

 

Would you think that someone with a belt in another form of karate would know nothing about you style? If someone with say, a green belt joined you dojo, would he have to start from the beginning again or keep his grade and be given a chance to adjust.

 

Hopefully we can get an active, insightful but respectful thread from this

[yamesu]

Ive trained in numerous Kyokushin dojos, aside from minor differences in teaching styles, the syllabus is always the same.

 

I think Karate differs a bit between styles.

 

ie) okinawan - japanese.

 

OSU.

[italian_guy]

It is mostly historical differences but it reflects also the style. Karate originated in okinawa from three different cities Shuri, Naha and Tomari, and the different style reflect this. For Example Goju and Uechi originated from Naha, while shorin and shotokan originated from Shuri (expecially Shorin while Shotokan has some Tomari influence) then there was the influence of the mainland Japan.

 

That also generated other differences and different styles (Wado).

 

To make a long story short there are some difference in the various styles, and, at least in Italy but I think it is also a common practice anywhere, If you change dojo you need to restart from white belt unless the two styles are similar or you pass a sort of re-qualification test...

 

If you go visiting a different dojo which is your style you can wear your belt, if it is a different style you should wear white belt.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Look at it this way...are all cars the same? Well, basically...yes. They all have 4 wheels, an engine/transmission, etc...but they are not all the same.

 

Karate is the same way. Basically, they are all the same, having kicks, punches, etc...but they are not the same in what they do with them, or how the execute them.

[Beer-monster]

Look at it this way...are all cars the same? Well, basically...yes. They all have 4 wheels, an engine/transmission, etc...but they are not all the same.

 

Karate is the same way. Basically, they are all the same, having kicks, punches, etc...but they are not the same in what they do with them, or how the execute them.

 

That's very true, but all car moves on the same principles and purpose, the differences are mainly superficial details of appearance, design and comfort.

 

After all if you learn to drive in a ford, you can still drive a ferrari (unless one of them was an automatic I guess).

 

I guess it comes down to whether you think that technique matters more than the principle on which it is founded, which often depends on you sensei.

 

Any thoughts

[Shorinryu Sensei]

What I was getting at was that like karate with its kicks and punches, all cars have engines and transmissions, so basically they are the same in certain aspects.

 

Like karate, cars can vary quite a bit in their function and effectiveness. Some are very basic transportation and very limited as to how they function and what they can do...the same with certain karate systems IMHO.

 

I don't want to get into specific martial arts and bashing them, but there are systems out thee that kick, punch, block, grapple, etc, but they are not doing realistic fighting techniques. Basically, all flash, and no "go.

 

Take a basic car like the Ford Model T. Not fancy, but it gets you from point A to point B just fine (kicks and punches). Many people are satisfied with this sort of "car" and not looking for anything beyond what it is capable of doing for them. Then we have the vehicles like the SUV's. Able to go places other "cars" can't go, do things other "cars" can't do and in general, more realistic and versatile in what they offer and are capable of doing.

 

Re-reading this...maybe I've made it even more confusing. Basically, looking at all of the different forms of karate out there in the world, there are those that are very good, and those that aren't very good. But there again, it all depends on what you want out of a karate system. If you want flash and no substance (think these mini cars out now with huge spoilers, graphics, HUGE stereos, etc...but a 4 cylinder motor)...there are those out there that do that. If you want substance and effectiveness in any situation (think "Hummer"! ), there are systems out there for that also.

[Beer-monster]

Very well said Shorinryu sensei, however I must ask, are the styles of karate really that different? Then again that's what this thread is about, to hear different views.

 

Especially in considering the most common styles out there, many have the same kata and similar movements, what difference does a cat stance rather than a back stance or to have your fist held a bit higher on this movement really make?

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Very well said Shorinryu sensei, however I must ask, are the styles of karate really that different? Then again that's what this thread is about, to hear different views.

 

I've been in the arts for over 30 years now and have tried to expose myself to as many different arts as possible through observation of them. I love the art I'm in and feel it is the best for me, so I've never tried another one, but through observation and many conversations with sensei from other arts, I feel that I have a pretty rounded background in what I feel works..and what doesn't.

 

Are the different styles of karate different? Oh, most definitely! As I've said before, they have commonalities in that they all basically kick and punch, but for example, HOW they kick and punch can be different.

 

For example, the basic roundhouse kick. We teach it that (using the back foot for example) you come up to your knee just like you're going to do a front snap kick. After it leaves the knee, it swings out in a SHORT arc to your target. The vast majority of other systems I've seen bring the back footed roundhouse out in a wide arc starting as soon as it leaves the floor. To them, this is good technique...to us, it is horrible technique and and needs to be fixed in the student. The wider arc is a major telegraph and is much esier to avoid or block than the way that we do it.

 

Take the same kick, the roundhouse with the front foot this time. Again, we bring it up straight to our knee first, then hook it in a short arc to the target. Other systems I've seen bring it from the floor and start to arc out immediately. Again, it's right for them..wrong for us.

 

Now, take the open hand block as another example. Many systems bring that block back to their ear and "chamber" it to strike the incoming arm. Again, to them, that's correct..to us, that's a major mistake. While the arm is back by your ear, your torso/face is exposed. Rather, we take that same blocking open hand and bring it up slightly at a 45 degre if front of us, leaving both of our arms in front of us for coverage and blocking, and strike down in a short, quick snapping motion and across for the block. This is all MUCH easier to demonstrate than to type out to make it clear to you and all reading this.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying what other systems do is wrong...just different...and to us, yes it is wrong.

Especially in considering the most common styles out there, many have the same kata and similar movements, what difference does a cat stance rather than a back stance or to have your fist held a bit higher on this movement really make?

 

Actually, where your hand, arm or leg is positioned during a technique can radically change the apllication and power behind that technique. Another example of differences such as this would be the high block. There are systems out there that teach that the high block ending position is with the arm parallel to the ground. To us, this is another major error and needs correction. Think about it...if you're blocking an incoming punch to the face, that block would work just fine...but change that incoming fist to a downward striking base ball bat aimed at smashing your skull. With your arm parallel to the floor when you block it, what is going to happen when the bat strikes your forearm? It's not only going to probably break your arm, but probably still make good contact with your head and knock you senseless...so what did you accomplish by it? Not much I'd say other than to slow down the bat so it didn't hit your head quite so hard...but it still hit your head! Now, the way that we do the high block, and I won't get into the exact procedure for the entire movement, is that the arm ends up at a 45 degree angle to the ground with the elbow at about mouth/chin height...much lower than most systems use. With the arm at a 45 degree angle, the bat is deflected downwards and to the side, and the most (I've actually done this in class) injury you will recieve is a bruised forearm...not broken. Plus, the bat won't hit you in the head.

 

There are literally hundreds of other examples I can give you, but I hope you get the idea. Yes, all systems of karate have simularities...but they don't all do the same thing and for the same reasons. What's right in one system is wrong in another.

[brickman]

Shorinryu sensei has hit it really well....I think the main difference is the application side of technique. I may go to his dojo, even though we are the same basic style, and do a technique completely different than he does. Again it is the idea of intended application.....that is where you get into different makes and models. I have seen guys who claim to be the same system as I am in, and not be able to do much more than the basics....why? Because their sensei never was able to grasp the concept of the application. That is very different and dangerous...much like driving an old Pinto or Nova...lol.

 

True, you will walk into a dojo and see kicks and stuff, but if you look closely you will see some difference...I think that is where some of you are coming from?? If you go from one to the other the change in basics would be easy if you had a general grasp? Is that the idea?

[Shorinryu Sensei]

I may go to his dojo, even though we are the same basic style, and do a technique completely different than he does. Again it is the idea of intended application.....that is where you get into different makes and models.

 

Exactly! All systems do the same "basic" techniques (a front snap kick for example), but it's the reason or application behind how and why they do them a certain way that is the difference.

I have seen guys who claim to be the same system as I am in, and not be able to do much more than the basics....why? Because their sensei never was able to grasp the concept of the application.

 

I've also seen this in blck belts..even HIGH Dan black belts. They can do the technique, but can't explain WHY they do them a certain way. This is not a good sign if you ask me.

True, you will walk into a dojo and see kicks and stuff, but if you look closely you will see some difference...I think that is where some of you are coming from??

 

Yes. I've taken low ranking belts into other dojo's to watch their classes (with their sensei's permission of course) and then gone back to our dojo to talk about what they've seen. Obviously, low ranking belts normally will miss the subtle differences in systems unless they are pointed out to them. We use these excursions..which I haven't done in a long time...as a training tool.

If you go from one to the other the change in basics would be easy if you had a general grasp? Is that the idea?

 

Well, not necessarily. I've found that people that come into my dojo thinking they already know how to kick, punch and block from another system...have a tough time adjusting often times to the way that we do it. I think a lot of it depends on how open minded they are and how flexible in their thinking they are. Some people get stuck into thinking they know it already and won't change. Some of these people stay, some don't. My senior student...a Sandan now..was origionally in Goju Ryu. His transition was relatively easy, but also had some "bumps" to overcome.