Whats the difference between Okinawan and Shokotan?

[pers]

shorinryu sensei ,you have been involved in karate a long time ,however as you have stated your knowledge of shotokan is limited to your local dojo and the one you briefly visited in UK .

 

I recommend to you to make an indepth research in shotokan ,then you will have a far better understanding of what shotokan really is .

 

I try to point you in the right direction by this brief introduction of shotokan in the western world.

 

Japan Karate Association the main body of shotokan sent its cream of crop to the west in order to spread shotokan in the 60s .these were kanazawa ,Enoeda ,kase ,shiraie ,Oichi ,Nishiyama and ....

 

We were lucky in England to have Enoeda sensie 8th dan(all japan champion) as our chief instructer ,together with Kanazawa and then on his own they inturn produced some very good instructers and karatekas

 

which were responsible for my training in turn.but in between there were people who learned a bit of basics to around brown or shodan but then broke away to form their own school and train students who some then went to form their own schools thus bringing the standards down .Living in the USA you must be well aware of this as it happens over in your neck of wood as well !

 

This is a problem not only with shotokan but all othr styles .

 

I recommend you get hold of the Dynamic karate book by late Nakayama sensie 9th dan chief instructer of JKA which is known as the bible of shotokan karate ,then you may be able to pass a fair judgement on this style of karate .

 

As you mentioned that if I come to your dojo ,I may find your stances weak and not practical ,I can not pass a comment as I have no real knowledge of your style but being an okinawan style i am more positive towards it than negative.

 

regards

[brickman]

I agree with the Shorin-ryu posters. Why train a certain way if you are not going to use it?

[Chirath]

I would just like to thank Pers for his posts on Shotokan. Before I wouldn't touch Shotokan with a ten foot pole. But thanks to your insightful posts I wouldn't really mind branching of into it. And at least someone stuck up for their art. Where are all the other Shotokan karateka's. Isn't Aefibird one? Stick up for your fellow man

[shotochem]

Wow pers *passing him/her a chill pill*..let's try to have a nice, civil conversation/discussionb here please. Shorin Ryuu isn't attacking Shotokan in as much as he's pointing out obvious differences in approach to the same objective.

 

I agree to a point.

 

I have had the opportunity to train with, and teach the local shotokan class a few times, and have observed it many times. The biggest thing that I notice in the way of differences between shotokan and shorin ryu are that shotokan tends to "muscle" techniques and use raw strength and power to accomplish their goal of striking or controlling their opponent. The key word here is muscle...aka strength and power.

 

Yes, this is true until you get to the upper ranks where technique is more strongly stressed.

 

Shorin Ryu's power comes not from over powering with muscle and strength, but rather with technique, speed and finesse. Strength is all and good if you're stronger than your opponent, but what if you're a 5', 90lb woman against a 6'4" 250lb man? Is she going to be able to out power/muscle him? Probably not.

 

Observe the adults especially brown and up over 30 yrs of age. There are quite a few smaller women I train with that can easily defend against me a larger heavier opponent.

 

In Shorin Ryu, and most other Okinawan systems that I've seen and studied, she would still have a good chance of successfully defending herself using her speed and good technique rather than just blasting in and trying to overcome her opponent.

 

To give you an example...the late Master Yuichi Kuda back in 1978 came and trained with our class for 3 weeks. I am 6'6" tall, and at that point, weighed around 220lbs. Slim, but in very good shape. Sensei Kuda was about 5'4" tall and maybe 150lbs. Quite a physical difference.

 

Sensei Kuda asked me to throw a kick of my chosing at him as fast as I could. He stressed that he wanted me to make hard contact with him and not pull it at all. Well, this was just a day or two after Sensei Kuda had arrived and I had not seen him do anything to this point. I launched a spinning back kick...which I felt was my fastest and strongest hitting kick to a stationary target. Sensei Kuda was just standing there like he was waiting for a bus...feet about shoulder width apart, hands down at his side..no obvious tension or prepardedness in his demeaner at all. Basically, Sensei Kuda looked like he could have been waiting for a bus at the bus stop.

 

Long story short, the next thing I knew after throwing my kick, was that I was face down on the floor, my kicking leg was being securely held by Sensei Kuda, and his foot was in the back of my neck and I could feel my vertibra stretching...and could imagine that with one good tug on my extended leg, my neck would have snapped. At that moment, I couldn't figure out how he did that to me so easily...but then he taught us that technique. Here was a man twice my age, half my physical size..and he left in my mind no doubt that with little effort on his part, he would have killed me quite easily.

 

I was physically stronger than Sensei Kuda and much larger than he was, but his technique was far superior to mine and he could overcome a larger, stronger opponent quite easily. This is the premise of Shorin Ryu karate. Not overpowering by sheer power, but winning through better techique.

 

LOL!!! I've had a similar experience with Kanazawa Koncho 70yrs old??? I can't even move that fast!!!

 

Does this help clarify what Shorin Ryuu is getting at a bit? Or did I make it even worse?

 

Crystal as far as I'm concerned. We're getting to worked up about this, it is a matter of personal preference when it comes down to styles. I am not the most gracefully moving person around and I find myself more comfortable in a hard powerful style.

 

(excuse the bold type I'm terrible with the quote feature.)

[AnonymousOne]

.... Then the Japanese learned from the Okinawans and Shotokan was formed from Japanese based Karate systems. Crude and short explaination, I know...but again, books have been written....

 

Thats not correct. Funakoshi was the founder of Shotokan, and he himself was an Okinawan and the first to teach Karate in mainland Japan.

 

When the first karate dojo was built in Japan, Funakoshi's students erected the sign "Shotokan". Shoto was Funakoshi's pen name. Funakoshi objected to his karate being labelled as Shotokan. Its a term others used and not him... see his autobiogrpahy.

 

Shotokan came from three schools. Tomari, Shuri and yes Naha. Many miss the Naha connection in Shotokan, but its there deep in the advanced Kata. If you study Gojuryu advanced Kata for awhile and then Shotokan advanced Kata you will soon discover "Hey, thats a highly modified Goju Kata". One must remember that Funakoshi studied with just about every comtemporary master of his day.

 

So.... Shotokan is a mixture of styles from Okinawa. Giko Funakoshi the son of Gichin Funakoshi had a huge influence in the last 1920's and 1930's in the development of Shotokan. It is said that Giko changed the stances and made then deeper and wider.

 

Albeit with the modifications, which Itosu and Azato (Funakoshi's foremost Masters) endorsed, Shotokan is Okinawan. Founded and modified by Okinawans for the Japanese people and the world.

[smr]

Long story short, the next thing I knew after throwing my kick, was that I was face down on the floor, my kicking leg was being securely held by Sensei Kuda, and his foot was in the back of my neck and I could feel my vertibra stretching...and could imagine that with one good tug on my extended leg, my neck would have snapped. At that moment, I couldn't figure out how he did that to me so easily...but then he taught us that technique. Here was a man twice my age, half my physical size..and he left in my mind no doubt that with little effort on his part, he would have killed me quite easily.

 

It's unfortunate that my generation of students will never have this opportunity. I wish I could have learned from Yuichi Kuda. Perhaps I'll meet Kosei Nishihara one day.

[Sauzin]

First of all I respect Shotokan and its practitioners. From what I have read and seen there are many advanced aspects that validate it's practice. I don't think Shorin-ryuu or anyone else is trying to say that Shotokan is ineffective as an art. It is and can be very effective, especially as it is practiced in the more advanced levels. Also each advanced practitioner will step further and further away from what most people consider the mold of his art and develop strengths and weaknesses separately. This is true of any art. They say all martial paths lead to the same destination.

 

Now with this said I have to say that my experiences with Shotokan seem to validate what Shorin-ryuu has said as a general rule. It seems to me that Shotokan, while it was indeed created by an Okinawan, developed and evolved in Japan. There seems to be heavy influences from Japanese arts and mindsets in their kata and bunkai. And this is why I make the distinction of Shotokan being Japanese. I don't think any art is defined by the nationality of the one person who started it. If it were then karate would be Chinese. Instead an art is defined by the place where it evolved. And because of this I feel Shotokan has a better understanding of budo. Shotokan has a more defined classroom environment. Their defenses and applications are practiced with more ridged controls. This offers both good and bad. Personally I have a preference to the Okinawan mindset because of their stringent adherence to practicality and refusal to use or practice anything that doesn't translate directly to what works on the street. I feel Shotokan stresses conditioning over practicality because they believe that fighting has a different set of rules then what is practiced in the classroom. The acceptance of this is where Okinawan ideals differ from what is generally held in many Shotokan schools.

[pers]

I would just like to thank Pers for his posts on Shotokan. Before I wouldn't touch Shotokan with a ten foot pole. But thanks to your insightful posts I wouldn't really mind branching of into it. And at least someone stuck up for their art. Where are all the other Shotokan karateka's. Isn't Aefibird one? Stick up for your fellow man

 

Thanks for your support ,especially since you are from another respectable school of wadoryu .

 

OSS !

[italian_guy]

Shotokan came from three schools. Tomari, Shuri and yes Naha. Many miss the Naha connection in Shotokan, but its there deep in the advanced Kata. If you study Gojuryu advanced Kata for awhile and then Shotokan advanced Kata you will soon discover "Hey, thats a highly modified Goju Kata". One must remember that Funakoshi studied with just about every comtemporary master of his day.

 

This connection between Naha-te and Shotokan is something that I heard but I was not sure it was true(or right) , thanks for your confirmation.

 

Let me add my two eurocent to this topic... I think the dispute if Shotokan can be considered or not an Okinawan style is somehow irrelevant because all the present karate styles (both okinawan and Japanese) underwent some evolution, any living thing or concept can evolve or die and since karate is not dead it evolves and it will continue to evolve... I think that even the most pure okinawan karate styles (i.e. Shorin and Goju-Shorei) had evolved since their foundation and Goju itself was already an evolution of Naha-te but probably not exactly the same thing.

 

So I think that what matters are other consideration like it is still self-defence effective? competion effective? Fun and healty practice?

 

Because people practice Karate for Self-defence, Sport, Fun or Fitness.

 

If your karate style fits your demand in one of those four items it is a good style... It is your style.

[pers]

I agree with the Shorin-ryu posters. Why train a certain way if you are not going to use it?

 

Maybe the reason could be similar to the way some athletes use wrist and ankle wieght for conditioning ! but they don't use it in the competition just in training .