Orders

[Kieran-Lilith]

Part of the debate is who the order came from. I have a hard time believing my Sensei would do that. But, he's Sensei. He does a lot of things I wouldn't expect. If it did come from Sensei, and he finds out my friend let it slip, then he'll be in serious trouble, no matter how much I stand up for him. 'Cause stupid as it is, if one of my friends gets in trouble for something I said or did, I stand up and fight til the punishment is mine. Craig is more than a little evil in most of our opinions. I remember from the first day I entered the dojo, my friend pointed him out and said to avoid him at all costs, or chances are, with my attitude, I'd have push-ups to do. At the time, I couldn't even do one, so that would have been bad.

[AngelaG]

This place sounds SO dodgy to me. Institutionalised bullying!? "Breaking" students?! Pain as punishment!? Sworn secrecy?!

 

Even the armed forces are trying to expel this kind of thing these days.

 

This sounds to me like the kind of dojo that gives MA a bad name Sorry, KL - I don't want to badmouth your place, but going on what you said I think that it sounds a dangerous and psychologically damaging place to be! Anyone else getting "Cobra Kai" vibes???

[Kieran-Lilith]

*sighs, and shakes her head* You have to be there to understand it. The bullying is the choice of the bullyer, just most of us live in enough fear (for a very good reason) to not tell on him. Last Tuesday-We worked on wrist locks and pinning them on the ground with their wrist (sorry I don't know the term). I had to work with Craig. An hour and half of pain, and nothing but. I asked my friend about it the next day. Craig twisted my wrist the way only the advanced students are taught. It causes extreme, prolonged pain. Craig made that choice, I would assume now as an attempt to break me. Not happening. "Breaking"-well, I have never heard our Sensei give the order to have a student "broken". I have just seen Craig's behavior to ensure no child has a mind of their own, not really. Even so-there's a lot of little ones in the class. None of them are broken, they just listen and do what their told, sometimes with whining, sometimes without. I just seem to be some sort of special case. Sworn secrecy-I made that choice on my own. I don't wish punishment from Craig upon anyone, and if anyone else found out, that's exactly what would happen to my friend.

 

My confusion is mostly-why am I such a special case? Okay, yeah, I'm probably twice the age of most students in the dojo. Big deal. I'm stubborn and independent. So what? I do what Sensei says, that's as far as it has to go. The only time I ever have any sort of problem, is when Sensei isn't around, or he is with another part of the class. Then I only have problems, really, only if I'm near Craig. There was a good reason I learned to stay away from him. Craig's the only one who's hurt me as punishment-for messing up a technique. A kick in the side while I was down, nothing more. Though that whole night was torture to me...oh well, hardly the point. Craig, I think, is closer to the root of the problem. He hates my friend. He looks at me with a kinda different manner...since I am a teenage girl...as I said, very good reasons to avoid him. I'm fairly certain he would lie to my friend, that way, he could control him more efficently. You can't read anything off Craig's eyes, except things that shouldn't be seen in the dojo, occasionally. I'm also fairly certain Craig would make my life difficult because-actually, I haven't got a clue on that one. Maybe because I'm an out of control person a lot of the time. When I'm outside the dojo, I do nothing unless I want to. Nobody controls me. I'm also a really weird kid, so my independence is noticed by all. I make sure of it.

 

I really don't understand what's going on here. I do not think Sensei would approve of what Craig does. He usually doesn't approve, and Craig gets punished, or has to do chores around the dojo. I know my friend is just trying to get his next rank, and ensure I don't get hurt. I know Craig wants my friend to get hurt. They dislike each other immensely. A way to hurt him, I guess, is through me. If you tell him that he can't get his next belt until he brings a wild child undercontrol, and pain only makes me rebel more, then what's going to happen to him?

 

It would be much appreciated if someone else in the world understood what is going on. No, the dojo isn't bad. Sensei isn't bad. I think this is something taking place just with Craig and my friend, and I've been dragged into it because I was there. I'm going to get as much information today as I can. Not sure how much I can get, though. My friend firmly believes lies sometimes...

[Nick_UKWC]

If you and your friend are being bullied and that is not being addressed then your Dojo is bad and your Sensei is bad, simple as that.

[kchenault]

Actually folks he is abusing his students. I remember being taught some wrist locks. They hurt when executed but you tap and they let go. That is the way to train. To tap someone with a kick to show an area of weakness of defense is acceptable, but not to hurt. To kick someone for not getting the technique perfect is abuse. How old is this Craig? If he is an adult, he needs to be charged with assault, if a teenager, he needs a good butt whipping to learn his place in life. Your Sensei should not be inflicting pain for pains sake either, or for punishment. That is the parents job if he is underage.

 

The first guy I trained with used the pain method because that is what he was taught. His instructor used to throw them into walls and hit them full contact during "training". Dale had told me he had his nose broken 3 times just in "training". Thankfully he didn't treat us as badly as he was treated. Get some help on this one Kieran-Lilith, before someone gets really hurt.

[kchenault]

Scratch the age question. Craig is a PUNK. The worst kind of student. The bullying kind. Tell your sensei, if he does nothing but physically abuse Craig to punish him, he is a bad Sensei.

 

You Kieran-Lilith, need to look at yourself as well. You state that you are stubborn and independant. Is this how you act with your parents? If so, you are in the wrong. Someone worthy of your respect, such as your parents, should be given such. You are the child, they are your authority. They have lived longer and know more than you about life.

 

Now, in the dojo, if a senior tells you to do something, you should do it with the proper respect and humility. You are dealing with a selfish attitude in yourself. The way you talk about yourself reveals much about you. Outside the dojo, you are your own person again.

 

Take that stubborness and buck the system, the right way. Respectfully refuse to train with Craig, when asked why, simply tell Sensei that he is abusive and you did not sign on for abuse. BE SPECIFIC. Tell him your concerns about your friend and Craig. Craig doesn't run the school, Sensei does or should. Sensei decides who tests and who doesn't for rank. Your friend needs to grow a pair as well and stick up for himself. Remove yourself from the conflict.

 

Actually, how old is Craig? Sounds like a real class act to me.

[smr]

Now, in the dojo, if a senior tells you to do something, you should do it with the proper respect and humility. You are dealing with a selfish attitude in yourself. The way you talk about yourself reveals much about you. Outside the dojo, you are your own person again.

 

I have to disagree here. No one has the right or authority to give you orders in the dojo. It this sort of attitude of subordinance that enables 14-year-olds to think that they can boss an adult around who may be of lower rank - and the adults allow it.

 

At my old school, this kid came in and trained with us one day. He used to train with us, and I think had his blue belt or something. He tried to give an order to a lower ranked adult. Of course, the adult didn't comply. The kid goes on to tell the adult that he has to do what he said, because he has a higher rank. I'll never forget the look on that kid's face when the adult told him that "The day you can beat my * is the day you can tell me what to do." Priceless.

[siufeifei]

It doesn't really matter about the ages. The point here is the whole ordering thing that is going on. It doesn't matter if the person is older or younger, the point is they feel like they are able to give orders because of superiority, real or not. Admittedly, if the person is of higher rank then with things to do with the class, you should listen, especially if they are leading the session but this is only applies with things to do with training.

 

What exactly do you mean by orders?

 

"get my shoes"

 

"sweep the floor"

 

"get my bottle of water"

 

"get me a chair"

 

or

 

"do ten press ups"

 

"run five laps"

 

"be quiet"

 

"listen"

 

Did you say that this was in the kids class?

[kchenault]

Good point siufeifei. It was exactly the one I was trying to make. When I was leading a class as a blue belt, I expected those being trained under me to listen to my instruction. A child should never tell an adult what to do unless it is an emergency. Many traditional MA require lower ranks to show proper respect to higher ranks. Some even require obediance to commands in the training setting, which is not unreasonable IMO. The personal errands commands should be ignored. That is power for power's sake. But the physical training aspect for talking in class or some other broken rule, totally appropriate.

[Master Jules]

Id like to know more about this Craig character......sounds like he is definetely leaning towards the abusive, masochistic side of things, and that just wont do.......Frankly, Im surprised that your Sensei hasnt addressed the situation, and Id be very dissapointed to learn that he hasnt even noticed it. You need to have a private discussion with your sensei on this one Kieran-lilith, as this is really a serious issue. It doesnt sound like you are simply receiving "hard-core" training, but again.....it sounds (by YOUR story) that he is abusive......

 

Lets all remember here.....in all fairness to this "Craig".....we havent heard his side of the story yet......but his behavior does sound abusive from what youve said......