To Bow or not to Bow (?)

[SBN Doug]

As everyone should be able to see from my posts wayyyy earlier in this topic, I'm one of the ones FOR bowing.

 

That said, I also understand how some "stricter" religions might take offense at a display that (in their religion) signifies some type of praise or worship. For instance, I wouldn't feel comfortable if I was asked to say a prayer at the beginning of class to a big gold cow. However, that would be MY issue. I feel it would be up to me to respectfully leave and find an art that did not require this.

 

There are pleanty of arts out there that don't require bowing in class. Granted, they are not, to my knowledge, olympic sports. Only the most "traditional" form of the arts have become olympic sports. However, these kids (and more importatly, their father that brought the suite) could not have attained the level necessary to qualify for the olympics without knowing that bowing is a necessary aspect of the traditional form of the art. I would be surprised if they were allowed to compete at any of the tourneyments referenced in the article without bowing.

Edited August 21, 2002 by SBN Doug

[metalhead]

Well said KSN Doug -

 

Now pray to the big gold cow or receive "Boot to the Head" j/k....

 

oh, and thank you ramymensa

[DeeLovesKarate]

Bowing is not religous. In Japan, it is just like shaking hands or saluting. People shouldn't take these things so seriously. If it offends them,personally, they should speak with their master about alternatives, such as shaking hands. Just a bit of advice,

 

Dee

[Red J]

I wonder if these two jokers that sued only use gold because American money says "In God We Trust". Seriously the bow, in my dojo, is in respect, not in worship. I know the difference. The court made the right decision in making them bow to participate because the bow does not infringe on their rights. Now if they had to say a prayer, that is another story.

[kchenault]

I can't believe how far this post got off topic. In most schools, the bow is about respect. If you don't like to bow for religious reasons then don't. But don't be surprised when they kick you out. TKD_McGee you are being very hateful in your diatribe. As a fellow Christian I must call you to task for your un-lovingkindness. Ask yourself, what would Jesus do. He would speak the TRUTH in LOVE. Bone up on the LOVE part.

 

To another part of the post. No disrespect to muslims, but our God is very different than your Allah.

 

One more thing, it is a great shame that most times Christians take part in these shameful lawsuits that happen in America. Spill hot coffee on yourself and sue the people that made the coffee hot and win. Something is very wrong in this country's legal system and the fix starts within ourselves and our faith and our beliefs.

 

GOD bless!

[fungku]

What branch am I from? Unless your reading from the book of mormon, you should read your Bible.

 

It clearly states that you should bow to no man. Which is reference to Kings, high officials, leaders, and that also goes for objects like a big brass buddah.

 

_________________

 

Do unto others, as they done to you.

 

[ This Message was edited by: TKD_McGee on 2002-03-05 11:08 ]

 

Come on, don't you think that means, bowing in submission, prayer or worship to another man.

 

The bowing we're talking about here, is a bow showing respect similar to a handshake, as long as you're not down on your knees I don't think you have to worry.

[DeeLovesKarate]

As everyone should be able to see from my posts wayyyy earlier in this topic, I'm one of the ones FOR bowing.

 

That said, I also understand how some "stricter" religions might take offense at a display that (in their religion) signifies some type of praise or worship. For instance, I wouldn't feel comfortable if I was asked to say a prayer at the beginning of class to a big gold cow. Do you have a problem with big gold cows?

 

However, that would be MY issue. I feel it would be up to me to respectfully leave and find an art that did not require this.

 

There are pleanty of arts out there that don't require bowing in class. Granted, they are not, to my knowledge, olympic sports. Only the most "traditional" form of the arts have become olympic sports. However, these kids (and more importatly, their father that brought the suite) could not have attained the level necessary to qualify for the olympics without knowing that bowing is a necessary aspect of the traditional form of the art. I would be surprised if they were allowed to compete at any of the tourneyments referenced in the article without bowing.

[DeeLovesKarate]

Okay, we're jumping all over the place here. The concept of a bow is respect. I don't see how a full bow is so different from a "small bow". Either way, it's a bow. A sign of respect. No one is trying to disrespect anyone by bowing. Meditating is something everyone does, clearing your mind to be able to think about your problems, whether formally or not. It's a natural human reaction. Another thing, is that meditating is different from trying to achieve mushin, which is much more spiritual than just contemplating. Mushin is a journey for self truth and fulfillment. It can be read about in "Living the Martial Way", and in "Stargirl". Trying to erase yourself to connect with everything, and truly BE you. I don't like to hear how I belong to a cult, and all of us. There is already a thread about this called " Christian Martial Artist?".

 

Grrr,

 

Dee

[Davison]

i have never been vary religous,in fact ive only stepped into a church acouple of times.thats probly bad huh?i dont have anything aginst religion but it is so questionable to me,i mean ive acuaually heard that jahovahs witness's belive that only 144 thousand people will be admitted into the kingdom of heaven,is that true?if it is ,i dont belive it.for the past couple of yrs, ive been practicing tibitan buddism w/ alady from okinawa and im really starting to understand their philosophy,it is very interesting and relaxing.i think one of the main reasons i like it is that it does not push the religions at you like chritianity and others.i have a hard time beliving that if i commit a sin or dont have faith,that im going to go to hell and suffer.i dont no to much about religion but one thing i do know is that the bible was written by man and all the suffering in the world would stop if god or jesus would just show himself,if he wants people to have faith,thats all it would take.

[Kamidake]

One person earlier mentioned his belief that Christians do not bow. This is factually incorrect. Hundreds of thousands of Eastern Orthodox Christians bow to our Lord, in the form of the Host, whenever they enter a church. So do I; although I'm not Eastern Orthodox, it occurred to me one day that he might prefer bowing to genuflection, since he chose to spend his time on earth in a place where bowing is a mark of respect. I've been bowing to him ever since. (He hasn't complained yet. )

 

I might also mention the Japanese-looking lady who came into church one day, sank to her knees, and did a full-out formal bow, hands flat on the floor, before both the Host and Our Lady's altar. So I think the point the gentleman might have been trying to make was that "Most American Christians do not bow." Which I would agree with; but the world's a lot bigger than our little corner of it here in the U.S. Overall, there's quite a lot of bowing going on out there in Christendom. Just wanted to clear that up.

 

As far as the larger issue goes, I think the people in the lawsuit were unable to distinguish between showing respect to the dojo, and to other people's religious beliefs, and PARTICIPATING in other people's religious beliefs. To me, the distinction is pretty clear. My class does formal Japanese bows at the beginning and end of class, unless our teacher's particularly pooped, in which case we do informal Japanese bows. (Teaching Jinenkan isn't his main job.) At the beginning of class, he recites a little Japanese prayer that translates to "I am ready for enlightenment at any time." He then claps twice, which is what you do when praying to the Shinto gods. The prayer seems to me to be suitable for all religions, so I too recite it. I don't clap, because I'm not a Shintoist. I also don't complain about his clapping. And he doesn't complain about my not clapping. And we proceed on with class and have a good time. It's a shame the people in the lawsuit were unable to solve it that simply.

 

As far as bowing in general goes, I'd like to start a movement in the U.S. to replace handshaking with bowing. There'd be a lot less colds and flu going around if we could all learn to keep our hands to ourselves. Anybody with me?