Joe Lewis on Bruce Lee

[Hansen]

MuayThaiBoxer - Bruce did spar with Norris. Norris also conveniently leaves that out. When Bruce and Norris first met in person they had a few short sparring sessions and Bruce beat the crap out of him. It was only afterwards that it turned into a student-teacher relationship.

But I should also state here that during a talk show interview in Hong Kong, when Bob Wall and Norris (after the release of Way of the Dragon) stated that they were students of Bruce, Bruce jumped in and stated (in Chinese) that these men were only actors. They were not his students. He was quite emphatic about that. But I don't know the reason why he stated such a thing since I do know that both have trained with Bruce on different occasions. But perhaps it was because Bruce knew that people were already trying to use his name to promote themselves. That's what I speculate anyway. I have been trying to secure that actual interview footage for quite some time and have had no luck thus far.

[Jbone1]

I heard about that show. The crowd wanted Chuck and Bob to show some stuff. Chuck kicked Bob a few feet back with a side kick. I seen a picture of it.

Man, we need some news clippings or something. Someone has to have those old magazines Bruce was on the cover of or did interviews for.

[Muaythaiboxer]

im not at all suprised that Lee beat the crap out of norris.

what do you people think of a bout between howard jackson and Lee.

jackson was champ of sport karate, kickboxing, and in the top ten in boxing.

[Kajukenbopr]

so technically, u train in a style that was left incomplete by your founder?

(just asking,by the way)

i dont really know much about JKD, if anyone could clarify this for me....

[Kickbox]

Remember that Joe Lewis was a "real" warrior. He fought in Vietnam as a US Marine. Before going to VietNam Lewis was a bodybuilder with a Mr.America level physique. Lewis also trained as a wrestler and planned to become a professional wrestler before getting the karate "bug" when stationed on Okinawa. On his return to the US in 1966 Lewis and several buddies visited Mexico where Lewis was attacked by several Mexicans at a bordelo. The little guys were beaten even though one had a knife and lewis was all alone. So many of the Bruce Lee 'ledgens" just don't make sense. There is no way Lee could have known vale tudo/BJJ methods of ground fighting in the 1960's.

In a tournament fight or a street fight the incredible Howard Williams could have taken Bruce Lee. If Lee had trained for tournaments or valetudo he would have been great. Bruce trained to be a great teacher and martial arts actor. Let the fighters be fighters and the actors be actors.

Chuck Norris may have been "only" a point fighter but at one time he was the best in the world. Now he's a millionaire and coul care less about what some of us think on a forum.

[kyospirit]

... EXACTLY !!!

[BJJ is 1]

so technically, u train in a style that was left incomplete by your founder?

(just asking,by the way)

i dont really know much about JKD, if anyone could clarify this for me....

Not incomplete just open ended, Lee never intended JKD to have strict guidelines just use what your particular situation calls for.

[Hansen]

Kajukenbopr - What do you mean by "incomplete"?

If you mean that the founder (Bruce Lee) did not finish or finalize his art form, then you are correct. But that was also how he intended it. In Lee's mind, martial arts should be ever evolving. If it is static it can never adapt to new situations. The problem with traditional martial arts was the fact that they were "complete", and stopped developing to meet new circumstances as they arose. And many of the practitioners of these traditional arts came to view their system as a complete martial art and therefore did not bother seeking knowledge in other styles.

[Hansen]

Remember that Joe Lewis was a "real" warrior. He fought in Vietnam as a US Marine. Before going to VietNam Lewis was a bodybuilder with a Mr.America level physique.

I don't know what Joe Lewis' time in Vietnam or bodybuilding background has to do with him as a street fighter. It does reveal a bit of his personality, athleticism, and fighting spirit. But I have friends who've wrestled in college, been in at least one Gulf War, and would kick my butt in a power lifting session, but I wouldn't consider them skilled street fighters, though they are tough guys. In fact, I've had two of them taken out by a guy who only weighs 160bs and stands a little over 5'6" - both were taken out quite easily with a rear naked choke.

Also, many modern pro-bodybuilders have commented on how awesome Bruce's physique was for his size, and how it even inspired them to strive for more in their own sport. This includes guys like Lee Haney, Dorian Yates, Shawn Ray, and Flex Wheeler. Haney and Yates were both multiple winners of the Mr. Olympia title. But I've never once heard mention of Joe Lewis. Most don't even know who Lewis is. I'll admit that Lewis was in shape, but I'd hardly call it a Mr. America physique. Check it out yourself:

Here's Joe Lewis: http://www.completemartialarts.com/whoswho/halloffame/images/joelewis2.gif

Here's former Mr. America 1965, Dave Draper: http://ontargetpublications.com/Dave%20Draper%20Mr%20America%201965%20Brooklyn%20Academy%20of%20Music.jpg

Lewis also trained as a wrestler and planned to become a professional wrestler before getting the karate "bug" when stationed on Okinawa. On his return to the US in 1966 Lewis and several buddies visited Mexico where Lewis was attacked by several Mexicans at a bordelo. The little guys were beaten even though one had a knife and lewis was all alone.

I heard about his pro-wrestling ambitions. But I also heard he wasn't good enough to make it big as a pro, so he "chose" karate. Don't know if it's true, but that's what some people are saying. As for his Mexcian knife encounter, I don't know anything about it. Maybe it's true, maybe it's made up. I don't know. Are there any living witnesses to the event? All I know is that Bruce's encounters are documented and as stated before, many first hand witnesses to these incidents are still alive, including Hollywood notables. I am not stating anything that cannot be verified by you or any one else on this forum.

So many of the Bruce Lee 'ledgens" just don't make sense. There is no way Lee could have known vale tudo/BJJ methods of ground fighting in the 1960's.

I do not know what you mean when you state that the Bruce Lee legends don't make sense. You'll need to elaborate on what you find "lacking in sense". Again, nothing I've posted is without your ability to verify, if you are willing to probe. It is no secret that Bruce Lee's art was geared toward street fighting, and modern vale tudo is as close as we can legally get to actual street fighting in the States. So I don't know what you find so unbelievable. Also, it is common knowledge that Lee trained with Gene LeBell, a very well known grappler. And Inosanto himself has admitted that Bruce had a Silat instructor whom he kept in touch with over the years. As for BJJ, I never stated that he knew BJJ specifically. But the submissions in BJJ are nothing new. If you know the history of BJJ, you'll know that it's actually pre World War II Kodokan judo. And similar submissions are found in catch wrestling, Japanese jujitsu, and other arts which Bruce would've had full access to learning (or learning about) during his lifetime. Bruce even takes out Samo Hung in the opening scene of Enter the Dragon with a submission.

In a tournament fight or a street fight the incredible Howard Williams could have taken Bruce Lee.

Don't know who Howard Williams is. But maybe he could've beaten Bruce, maybe he would've gotten his butt kicked. Bruce is dead, we'll never know. But win or lose, it doesn't mean Bruce couldn't fight or wasn't a fighter.

If Lee had trained for tournaments or valetudo he would have been great. Bruce trained to be a great teacher and martial arts actor. Let the fighters be fighters and the actors be actors.

As far as I know Bruce didn't deliberately train to be a teacher. And some have stated that he was actually not a great teacher because he was very authoritarian in his approach. But they admit that he was able to convey information rather well and had innovative ways of getting his students to learn the material. As for his acting ability, he may have trained to be an actor but I think he was a mediocre actor at best. There was definitely much room for improvement. (But still better than Keanu Reeves)

As for Bruce only being a movie martial artist, I've already discussed this on prior posts. The people who say that he was "just an actor" never had the guts to say that to his face while he was alive. And the one person who made such a comment (i.e. Chuck Norris) while he was alive, was challenged openly to a fight and the guy backed down.

Chuck Norris may have been "only" a point fighter but at one time he was the best in the world. Now he's a millionaire and coul care less about what some of us think on a forum.

I'll give you that. Norris was the acknowledged champion at striking air. And you're probably right. Norris could care less about all our little discussions on this forum. And he probably is a millionaire. But I would hardly call him a fighter. He was a non-contact tournament practitioner.

Concluding Remarks: You seem intent on attacking Bruce. I don't know why, considering your own hero, Joe Lewis, thinks highly enough of Bruce to have studied under him and to teach his art today. In fact, this art from a mere actor was so good that it was better than anything Lewis, a so called "great fighter", could've come up with himself. That alone should give you reason to pause. I never heard of Bruce or Inosanto teaching the Joe Lewis method. Even Ted Wong, whom you say took privates under Lewis, teaches Jun Fan/JKD.

Anyway, it's been an interesting discussion, but I think it's time to let this one rest.

[Kajukenbopr]

To my knowledge the only style Bruce Lee really trained in was Wing Chun(kung Fu). Some say he trained in other styles, but I know for a fact that that is a pretty complete self defense style, being Kung fu....

Anyone would like to clarify this for me..?