The role of Sensei

[AngelaG]

This could end up being quite a controversial subject I suspect. I think it’ll be quite interesting to get input from those who instruct and those who are students. I also think it’ll be interesting where people think the difference between children and adults comes in. Please note I will use “him” only for ease of writing replace with “her” where necessary

 

In the dojo Sensei is king. You start when he tells you to start and you stop when he tells you to stop. You do whatever technique he asks you to the best of your ability and you don’t answer him back or give him cheek. Indeed, your very chances of grading rest with him. Even the name “Sensei” demands respect common translations being “Teacher” or “One who has gone before”. I think most people would agree with this.

 

However once you have bowed out of the lesson where does that leave you? If you are an adult do you find that once the lesson is ended that you are suddenly two equal adults again? Does your instructor find it hard to ever snap out of his “Sensei” role, or do you find it hard to snap out of “student” role? Do you think that the status should ever change out of lesson time? Are you carrying his bags around or doing chores for him in your free time? Or are you friends with them as soon as it’s finished?

 

From a child’s perspective I don’t see anything wrong with keeping a teacher/student role. There is nothing wrong with teaching children respect by giving them authoritative figures to look up to, whether this be parents, school teachers or Sensei. Perhaps it is a good thing to remain a bit aloof. I know that even as an adult if I see one of my old school teachers in the street I still refer to them as Mr or Mrs X.

 

I want to take this a bit further. How much should Sensei’s influence be on your everyday life? If as an instructor you see one of the children out of class time beating up another child so you take them aside in the lesson and tell them this is unacceptable behaviour. Do you feel it brings disrepute to your club? I personally think most people would say that there is nothing wrong with an instructor reprimanding a child for bad behaviour he has observed out of club time (I may be wrong). Is he morally within his rights to stop the child from attending his club? I know he can, his club, his rules, but morally is his deciding what’s right and wrong out of club time a right thing to do?

 

Again we go further. Let’s apply a similar situation to an adult. Sensei has been out one weekend and seen one of his adult students in an inebriated situation; the student is acting rowdy and perhaps even being a little abusive. The student then attends the lesson the next week and is pulled up by sensei for his behaviour. The student questions whether this is any of the Sensei’s business, as within the club confines he acts impeccably. Does the student have a point or is the Sensei right to try and uphold the morality he teaches within the lesson time?

 

Maybe you thought that in the above case the Sensei was wrong to interfere. What a student does in their free time is up to them? So let’s test where the boundaries of acceptability lie. Take a case where a student attends class every week. They are the model student in class time and someone that you feel every student should aspire to be; punctual, courteous, giving 110%, gently guiding their kohai whilst looking up to their sempai. Sensei is more than pleased with this student and really thinks they may go somewhere. Until he starts noticing little niggling signs. Perhaps the student’s partner comes in with a black eye one week and a split lip a few weeks later. Doubts start to creep into Sensei’s mind. Is the person he is teaching to fight being physically abusive to their partner? Should he start prying? Is he within his rights to refuse to teach the student based on nothing more than his own doubts? (Again I mean morally, I know literally he can teach who he wants). Would it be right for him to take the student aside and demand to know how their partner got their injuries?

 

I would think we are in some pretty deep waters here. If you are anything like me perhaps you are undecided. One minute you think that it is right and the next maybe not. What is MY role as in instructor in my students’ lives?

[italian_guy]

I think you are right to consider it a delicate matter.

 

My opinion is the following:

 

concerning kids or children if the sensei notice some violent behaviour I think he should talk with parents first... once or several times if necessary... if the kid continue in his bad behaviour he may consider the idea of not teaching the kid something that the kid is not able to use properly.

 

Concerning adult behaviour the sensei cannot be considered a life style teacher, however he is still the haed of club or an association... if he notice that someone (in a very extreme case) behave so badly that his association or club can have bad reputation for this he has the right in my opinion to complain with the student or even to expell him from the school.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

However once you have bowed out of the lesson where does that leave you? If you are an adult do you find that once the lesson is ended that you are suddenly two equal adults again? Does your instructor find it hard to ever snap out of his “Sensei” role, or do you find it hard to snap out of “student” role? Do you think that the status should ever change out of lesson time? Are you carrying his bags around or doing chores for him in your free time? Or are you friends with them as soon as it’s finished?

 

Speaking only for myself here, when class is over..we revert to "people" again. Not Sensei/Student. My best friend is my senior student, and has been for many years. Inside class we have a teacher/student relationship, but outside, we are friends...as i try to do with all of my students. I know instructors that expect a student to bow to them on the street (rediculous if you ask me) or expect them to mow their yards, paint their houses, wash their cars, etc. The only time one of my students does anything like this is when they can't pay for classes (typically a high school student), I will barter in exchange for doing some work for me. I do not expect them to do it for free. That is a Oriental, subserviant mentality which I do not support in this country.

From a child’s perspective I don’t see anything wrong with keeping a teacher/student role. There is nothing wrong with teaching children respect by giving them authoritative figures to look up to, whether this be parents, school teachers or Sensei. Perhaps it is a good thing to remain a bit aloof. I know that even as an adult if I see one of my old school teachers in the street I still refer to them as Mr or Mrs X.

 

Agreed!

I want to take this a bit further. How much should Sensei’s influence be on your everyday life? If as an instructor you see one of the children out of class time beating up another child so you take them aside in the lesson and tell them this is unacceptable behaviour. Do you feel it brings disrepute to your club? I personally think most people would say that there is nothing wrong with an instructor reprimanding a child for bad behaviour he has observed out of club time (I may be wrong). Is he morally within his rights to stop the child from attending his club? I know he can, his club, his rules, but morally is his deciding what’s right and wrong out of club time a right thing to do?

 

I nip the fighting outside the dojo thing in the bud when they join my class. If the student is a minor, I sit them down with their parents and explain to them that regardless of their past, they are, from this moment on, expected to keep their noses clean if they want to remain in my classes. Seld-defense is one thing, bully's are another. Every one of my students knows that if they start a fight...physically or verbally, and I find out about it..they are out of my class...permanently! No second chances on this.

 

 

I have several times seen a student of mine that was getting a bit to rowdy and aggressive in a bar. I have no problems walking up to them, placing a hand on their shoulder and telling them "I think you should calm down a bit". To date, I've not had a problem with one of my students not doing as I ask. I even had a student once come up to me and tell me he hated this other guy in the bar and was going over to start a fight with him and his friends, and that he was going to tell them that the two of us were going to kick their butts. I looked him straight in the eye and told him "If you go over there and start a ight and get me involved, the first person I'm going to lay out will be YOU!" Well, he backed off and behaved himself. We talked about it the next class and he understood what I was telling him.

Would it be right for him to take the student aside and demand to know how their partner got their injuries?

 

Demand? No. Ask? Yes. A past student of mine and his wife had problems in their marriage. It was obvious in class that she was afraid of him and that she really didn't want him learning how to hit someone even more effectively. I talked to her first in private about it in the grocery store one day and she admited he pushed her around and slapped her now and then. I pulled him aside a few weeks later when he was being more aggressive in class than usual and he admitted he was that way sometimes. I told him if he ever hurt her, he'd better watch out because I'd be the first one coming after him. I have ZERO tolerence for abusers. They divorced a few months later. He's long gone, but she is still my friend.

I would think we are in some pretty deep waters here. If you are anything like me perhaps you are undecided. One minute you think that it is right and the next maybe not. What is MY role as in instructor in my students’ lives?

 

As a Sensei, I feel our role is that of teacher, mentor and guidance couselor. We have a certain amount of influence that we need to exercise, but also need to know our boundaries. In problem situations, I feel we need to act more as a friend would, rather than a superior.

 

Pardon any typo's in my replies, as I'm rushed to be heading out of town in a bit for the weekend aand may have missed some.

[AngelaG]

Nice post Shorinryu Sensei, I fully agree with you.

[SevenStar]

In this respect, you can really see how modern and traditional schools of thought differ. In our classes, we are respected (coaches) but we are in no way "king" we are treated pretty much as equals both in and outside of class, as several of us hang out outside of class.. The respect we have is on a brotherly basis - we are for the most part all friends, and for the most part we all get in the ring. we respect eachother as friends and fighters, not as "teacher" or "king".

 

I fully agree in respects to the coach / child relationship, however.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Within the confines of the dojo, the sensei is master. Outside of the dojo, he is a very good friend of mine. However, I have seen, and come to expect, that immoral behavior by a student outside of the dojo will be dealt with inside of the dojo. This is because a martial artist is not a martial artist only inside the dojo, but outside as well. For example, my sensei punished one student for receiving a DUI (Driving Under the Influence). This showed poor self-control and judgement by the student, and sensei felt it ultimately reflected back on him and the school although the man was nearly 35. A sensei's power lies within the dojo, not outside, however things his students do outside of the dojo, can be dealt with within the dojo.

[Killer Miller]

You know, for years people and friends have asked me as to what my oppinion is of a certain style or art is. I will never give them my opinion because that is like discussing religion. I tell them that if the class is structured, and it improves one's way of life (physically or mentally), and you enjoy the classes, then it's a good thing regardless of what my style opinions are.

 

What's this have to do with the topic? The above is to imply that an instructor should always "try" to better all of his students. This includes respect and being attentive, creative and resourceful in your classes, as well as sincerity, caring, and a good friend out of class. You also have a liability if you suggest or imply using the art you teach outside of the class for less honorable reasons. Therefore, you have a legal obligation, as an instructor, to inquire as to why someone is coming into the class injured. For example, was another student bullying other students? Was you student fighting in general? Does the student live in a bad area and gets beat up on his/her way home? Was the student abused at home (which should always be reported)? If it is determined that you allow or that you imply that the miuse of the art is ok, then legal action could be taken on your part - not a good thing...

 

An instructor has the moral and legal obligation to ensure the students are properly taught and they maintain a positive physical and mental outlook in life in the process. This is and on-going process that changes with the art and society's concerns in general.

 

In closing, you can't ignore student concerns and must try to resolve all issues and concerns before they escalate or become harmful to themselves or other persons. It is always a good idea to write a summary to document the discussion for future legal references as well. But still be a friend in the process.

 

- Killer -

[Drunken Monkey]

...slightly different response from me.....

 

in japan and china, the idea of teacher/sensei/sifu is more a part of the society/culture than it is outside of those places.

 

in those cultures, the sensei/sifu is an actual role that exists within the structure of society and as such has it's responsibilities and quite clearly defined relationships within that society.

 

they are looked on with the same respect as a doctor or solicitor or whatever proffession.

 

the only difference is that they also have a role tht is slightly outside of normal society in which they, as sensei/sifu have responibility to maintain/control.

 

traditionally, whether or not you are in the dojo/quan or whether or not you are actively training, that person IS your sensei/sifu, now and forever.

 

to be 'disowned' is one of the biggest is probably one of the most shameful things.

 

you've all read this from me before but traditional sensei/sifu isn't about friendship.

 

it really was a father/son relationship and this relationship is maintained by BOTH parties.

 

while you can say you are good friends with your sensei/sifu

 

but

 

that is more like the way you would say you are friends with your dad.

 

as for modern sensei/student relationships.

 

two things change it is in non eastern society.

 

i) the nature of the modern world cultures.

 

ii) the ways martial arts have changed.

 

there's no way that a native western guy is going to really understand (instinctively) what the traditional role is like, not to say that it won;t fit in with western culture.

 

well, he could understand but it is going to be a 2nd hand understanding, if you get what i mean.

 

then tehre's the fact that more and more these days, your sensei might not be much older than you...

 

whereas in traditional training you were inducted into a dojo/quan at a young age and the guy running the place was the age of your father

 

(or even grandfather in the case of yip man and ip shui etc etc who were teaching up until their deaths),

 

today the guy teaching you might be younger than you.

 

then there's the plain fact that the modern dojo isn't run like one of the past.

 

(a lot of chinese places still teach using the father/son model but then that's cos not many of those schools have been 'modernised')

[SevenStar]

What's this have to do with the topic? The above is to imply that an instructor should always "try" to better all of his students. This includes respect and being attentive, creative and resourceful in your classes, as well as sincerity, caring, and a good friend out of class. You also have a liability if you suggest or imply using the art you teach outside of the class for less honorable reasons. Therefore, you have a legal obligation, as an instructor, to inquire as to why someone is coming into the class injured. For example, was another student bullying other students? Was you student fighting in general? Does the student live in a bad area and gets beat up on his/her way home? Was the student abused at home (which should always be reported)? If it is determined that you allow or that you imply that the miuse of the art is ok, then legal action could be taken on your part - not a good thing...

 

Definitely moral, but are you sure about legal? I really can't allow or disallow anything outside of class - I'm not their parent. I can advise, but can really do no more, other than punishment within the school, like kicking them out.

[smr]

As far as the student fighting situation, I'm a believer in the idea of "it takes a village." (not the Hillary Clinton book). If you're an adult and you see some kids misbehaving with no supervision, it is your responsibility to do something about it.

 

If you don't agree with the way your student is using the skills you are teaching them, then it's your prerogative to discontinue instructing them. Simply excuse them from their contract if necessary and refund them any monies that they have paid in advance of that day's training. There are other schools for them to go to.

 

I believe that the student/instructor (sensei) relationship should be no different than that of a student of comparable age and a teacher. Children and teachers will have a more formal relationship than of adults and professors. I think those relationships have been acceptable thus far and martial arts training should be no different. Teachers of the customary type and martial arts teachers both dedicate a great deal of time and hard work in their trades and thus deserve the appropriate amount of respect.