Katana Training

[Shito Ryu]

A basic knowledge is better then none at all MM. I got the basic moves of the Sai form a video that came with the Sai I bought and when we started training with them in class, I was far ahead in Sai skill then anyone(besides Sensei) in the class. Only because I had learned hte basic strikes, blocks, and how to hold the Sai from that video I got. I don't really like the flashy moves because most of them are pointless in a real fight. The look good to your friends and in Kata, but most(not all) are a worthless knowledge.

[username4]

some of the stuff i did was mostly for handeye quardintaion and streanth i had no intention of useing it for fighting but if i was to be in a fight they would be hurtin.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Swords aren't for twirling, they're for cutting.

 

Twirling a weapon for kata competition may be aesthetically pleasing to the crowd and maybe the judges, but it's a hollow skill.

 

Try to find an iai or ken dojo and learn how to use the weapon properly.

[kchenault]

While I agree with finding a teacher, sometimes things can be learned by watching a tape. No it may not be perfect, but sometimes you have no choice when trying to follow a dream. You can learn the basics from a tape, if you are careful. I learn better from watching, not being told. I would imagine that most are like this or we wouldn't need to watch the instructor perform the technique first. We should all keep an open mind about this. Otherwise, all instructional tapes need to be considered suspect.

 

I am learning how to paint a certain way by watching a tape and practicing. Is this possible by some of your standards? Some of you would have to say no to remain consistant with your own thinking. Just something to chew on...

[Sauzin]

While I agree with finding a teacher, sometimes things can be learned by watching a tape. No it may not be perfect, but sometimes you have no choice when trying to follow a dream. You can learn the basics from a tape, if you are careful. I learn better from watching, not being told. I would imagine that most are like this or we wouldn't need to watch the instructor perform the technique first. We should all keep an open mind about this. Otherwise, all instructional tapes need to be considered suspect.

 

I am learning how to paint a certain way by watching a tape and practicing. Is this possible by some of your standards? Some of you would have to say no to remain consistant with your own thinking. Just something to chew on...

 

Oh man you just don't know how far off and how depressing this type of thinking is. I'm going to get on my soap box here and go over a few points. I hope I don't step on any toes.

 

Karate, kobudo, iaido, and more are art forms but I think you might misunderstand what kind of art they are. They are not dance and look pretty arts. They are not miming or imitation arts. They are not abstract arts whose beauty is found by the beholder. They are martial arts. This means they are made to work and in working they allow you to express yourself. But if they don't work then the expression is hallow and without drive and purpose. Art of a martial art is in the effectiveness of the expression. This differs from painting where the art is both the expression and their interpretation by observers. An untrained child can paint, the same is not true of iaido. Where the paint brush used for a specific non-subjective purpose (like building a bridge) then your comparison would be closer. Now imagine if you learned to build a bridge from a video tape. Say you did get it constructed, but then had to trust your life with it by walking across. If failure meant death would you settle for a video tape?

 

It gets better. I don't know if some people really understand what is passed on between a teacher and a student in a martial art with a lineage. It's more then just the way movements are done. A kata is like a journal that has something written in it from every master throughout the generations who has touched it. We aren't talking about the creation of one man. We are talking about the compiled works of generations of accomplished martial artists. Their legacy is in the kata and the way it is taught from teacher to student through the decades. And you guys think you can get any of this from a tape? You can't. Not even a little bit of it. Not a smidgen. Nothing. You get your own interpretation of a group of movements. That is not the kata, that's a soulless construction put together by your mind. Not the minds and hearts of generations before you. The more people who do this and pass it off as a martial art, the harder it will be to find the real thing.

 

And there's more when talking about weapons. For all the subtleties of empty handed arts, times them by 10 and that’s what you find in legitimate weapon arts. Especially the katana. The difference with the katana is that if you learn it from a tape, not only are the techniques useless and likely to get you killed if you rely on them, but you are very likely to hurt or kill yourself or someone near you.

 

Is learning nothing at all better then learning a little incorrectly and getting killed by it? YES! Should people follow their dreams? ABSOLUTELJY! But not half a$$ed. If it really is a dream then you should fulfill it with the real thing. Find an instructor, learn the real art. None in your area? Then move! It's your dream for God's sake don't make excuses, go follow it! But if there is no one around, or you are too lazy to look or pay for it then find another dream that you can really fulfill. Because the last thing that you want is a life filled of false accomplishments and dreams that mean nothing and that’s all anyone trying to learn these arts will ever get from just a video.

[kchenault]

Just a question. Who came up with how to wield a Katana?

 

Who created martial arts to begin with? Were they just etched in someone's mind from birth? Someone had to create them.

 

And following a dream is not that easy. Life doesn't allow most people to move just to fullfill a dream. Too many instructors want your first born child to teach you their legacy. Or like I encountered, they want you to learn a different art to blackbelt level before you can train with a weapon. That's bullpuckey! If one art can be taught, so can another. Haidong Gumdo is generally taught as a separate art, learned independantly from other arts. I will probably not convince you of this, anymore than you will convince me that I can't learn anything from a tape. If I see the deficencies in myself, accomplished by honest introspection, I will know if I can do something or not.

 

Back to my example of painting. I said a specific technique of painting. The end result must look a certain way. Not every practioner of sword arts looks the same when they perform. My painting will not look exactly like someone elses, but you will recognize the technique. Some people who are taught by an instructor still can't do the technique properly.

 

There was an article at one time in BlackBelt magazine that looked at this very question. They found for mechanics and technique, people learned equally well either way. Are there shortcomings from learning by watching a tape, surely. Is it impossible? No way!

 

One other question. Are any of you that have responded to this question of, tape or instructor, in fact instructors in an art? If so, look at your own bias as an instructor first.

 

AAHHH, such stimulating conversation!

[Sauzin]

This is what I was saying. No one person came up with the way to wield the katana that is currently practiced in today’s traditional martial arts. The techniques used today have been refined over generations of masters. While each system may have a founder, the founder gained experience elsewhere and was taught by real live people. Not a video. No founder of any legit system has been taught solely by a video.

 

I agree that following a dream is not easy. Nothing worthwhile is. Beginners and even some experienced martial artists need to understand this. There is no easy way to become a good martial artist. Many tapes try to sell you on an easy way of learning an effective art. This is marketing hype. A real art, even if you have a teacher, requires commitment, hard work, and discipline. Sure it's fun, but even with a teacher it's not easy. With just a video it is impossible.

 

If you really have a dream of learning weapons then things like learning another art should not be a problem, especially when the art you practice has no such weapon art. While some weapon arts can and are taught separately, many aren't and shouldn't be. Many weapon arts draw on specific empty hand experience. In fact I started martial arts practicing in a version of Goju-Ryu that did not practice weapons. I was lucky and found a weapon instructor who would teach me weapons separately, but after some work I soon found that learning the empty hand art that he taught made learning the weapons correctly easier. It would have been more work to just learn weapons then to learn both arts.

 

Kata, which all traditional arts have some form of, are more then just a technique. Comparing them to one painting technique is a gross inaccuracy. Comparing them to a painting style may be closer but still not allow comparisons to objective successes. Painting is subjective, winning a fight or protecting your life is not. This is why I use the bridge building comparison. Building a bridge is complicated and its architecture can be very artful though the main objective is still to reach the other side safely. Fail in this, and the art is pointless. Again, would you settle with a video on bridge building if your life depended on it? To what lengths would you work to find a real instructor who knew what he was doing if your life was at steak? Do you think the creators of these arts had the luxury of settling for less? Do we really know if we can afford this luxury ourselves? Will your bridge break?

 

Am I an instructor? Not technically but I do help run classes. I do not make money and I have nothing to gain except the opportunity to refine my technique and the satisfaction of helping others refine theirs. I am a student and nothing more at least twice a week. I know what I know because I have tried it and seen it. I have seen people learn from videos out of convenience. I have seen someone have to unlearn and relearn these things and take much more time then if they had just put forth the effort to find someone to begin with. Or even just waited until there was someone to show them. I have also seen people who learned entirely from videos convinced that they have a martial art that will protect them on the street. I hope they never have to find out the truth the hard way, but somehow I think that not knowing their art is ineffective increases their chances. Am I biased or experienced? I don't know take your pick.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Thank you Sauzin, you voiced my thoughts in a most...artful manner.

 

 

"There was an article at one time in BlackBelt magazine that looked at this very question. They found for mechanics and technique, people learned equally well either way. "

 

Oh, well if it was in BLACKBELT magazine, then it had to have been methodologically sound and puts an end to this debate...

 

Yes, you can learn something from a tape. Usually, it is bad habits. I will concede this point, though: If you are well-versed enough in the martial arts, such as the bo or empty hand, for example, then you can learn from a tape. If you are a raw beginner, like someone who has never picked up a bo in their life, or never had an instructor, then there is very little value that you can gain from a tape. You may even memorize the rough movements of some basics, but they will most likely be plagued with bad habits that an instructor is not present to catch. In other words, you may end up worse off than before you started.

Just a question. Who came up with how to wield a Katana?

 

Who created martial arts to begin with? Were they just etched in someone's mind from birth? Someone had to create them.

 

This always seemed to me to be the weakest argument for learning from a tape. People just love the idea of the rugged individual putting their brain, heart and body to work and creating something entirely brand new. However, in the martial arts, most people trying to do this end up merely re-inventing the wheel, and in many cases, that wheel really stinks.

 

Have I learned things from tapes? Yes. In all cases, it was never anything that I had no exposure to. Furthermore, they almost all required partners for me to test them on, and I sometimes had the benefit of asking instructors about various things. But learning the katana from a tape? No. This isn't the voice of bias, it's the voice of reason and experience.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Just a question. Who came up with how to wield a Katana?

 

Who created martial arts to begin with? Were they just etched in someone's mind from birth? Someone had to create them.

 

And following a dream is not that easy. Life doesn't allow most people to move just to fullfill a dream. Too many instructors want your first born child to teach you their legacy. Or like I encountered, they want you to learn a different art to blackbelt level before you can train with a weapon. That's bullpuckey! If one art can be taught, so can another. Haidong Gumdo is generally taught as a separate art, learned independantly from other arts. I will probably not convince you of this, anymore than you will convince me that I can't learn anything from a tape. If I see the deficencies in myself, accomplished by honest introspection, I will know if I can do something or not.

 

Back to my example of painting. I said a specific technique of painting. The end result must look a certain way. Not every practioner of sword arts looks the same when they perform. My painting will not look exactly like someone elses, but you will recognize the technique. Some people who are taught by an instructor still can't do the technique properly.

 

There was an article at one time in BlackBelt magazine that looked at this very question. They found for mechanics and technique, people learned equally well either way. Are there shortcomings from learning by watching a tape, surely. Is it impossible? No way!

 

One other question. Are any of you that have responded to this question of, tape or instructor, in fact instructors in an art? If so, look at your own bias as an instructor first.

 

AAHHH, such stimulating conversation!

 

Yes, I am an instructor in classical Japanese martial traditions. I teach a koryu ryuha that teaches swordsmanship, close combat, hand-to-hand combat and other weaponry. Now bear in mind, all of these systems are all in the same school, not seperate disciplines. They are all as important as each other.

 

It isn't absurd to learn one displine before another in ryuha. In fact, in some ryuha, this is a way of making sure that "tourists" don't go home with any family treasures before they earn the privelige of that knowledge - An insurance policy of sorts.

 

Sometimes, a ryuha will teach disciplines simultaneously and you'll only learn the bare basics and if you don't have each discipline at the same level, you don't learn anymore until you improve.

 

Here are the downfalls of doing things as silly as self training without the guidance of an instructor and using only books and tapes:

 

1. No feedback, even with a training partner, the feedback won't be correct.

 

2. Failure to learn the correct concepts such as Maai, seme, hasuji, enshin ryoku, tai sabaki, zenshin, tsushin, zanshin, reishiki and even rekishi.

 

3. Failure to properly learn how to maintain and care for the weapon. (Alright, some iai books show how to powder and oil the sword, but there are other tricks of the trade that are not mentioned. like servicing the saya.)

 

4. lying to one's self. You have a dream to learn swordsmanship and become accomplished, but instead of learning an honset to god tradition, you stick to mixing and matching techniques from different schools and making a "kenjutsu pot pourri". If you really want to do so, live your dream! Get the qualifications required and go to Japan to learn. Either that or get a proper instructor.

 

5. There's no history or tradition in making your own school of swordsmanship. There are traditional schools out there where men have died and spilled the blood of others, in order for these schools to progress. Which would you choose to learn from, a brand new school made by a neophyte, or a school that has an actual history of combative contact?

 

Respect,

[Hudson]

Especially with something like Katana, you do not want to forego a teacher in your first few lessons. There are so many details in drawing sword that you could create bad habits with. I would say a video is the worst way to learn basics - basics are your foundation, if you mess those up, you're pretty much without a paddle from there.