The Martial Athlete vs. the Martial Artist

[jarrettmeyer]

In it's most basic form, isn't this up to the practicioner?

 

An art is anything that you use to outwardly express your inner thoughts and emotions. Whether painting, sculpting, MA, riding horses, architecture, baking, writing, being a doctor, etc. isn't the practicioner expressing himself?

 

My karate is an art, because that's how I train. I am expressing myself. I am working to make myself both physically and emotionally better.

 

My karate is a sport. I follow a set of rules designed for competition, with a goal of doing better than my opponent - both the internal and external opponent.

 

Even consider the student who studies because of hatred and violence, only wanting to hurt others. If this is what he feels and expresses, then is it not art just because you don't like what it looks like?

 

Ultimately, each individual must be responsible for the answer to this question.

 

(Sorry about the pontificating.)

[judoguy]

Martial applies to the principals of physical combat that are systematically put together and applied forcefully on aggressors or people who need to be put down. The art comes in as the various individual expessions of those principals. So if we go by that definition then yes boxing is a martial art as is wrestling.

 

For example; take a street brawler. He punches, clinches, kicks, he uses his knees and his elbows when he fights. Now take a thai boxer. He does the same thing, so what is the difference? The difference is that thai boxing took all of those moves and systematized them. Basically perfecting how to effectively knee, punch, kick , elbow and clinch. And by adding drills to boost speed, power, timing, and endurance you have what is (arguably) today the most simple yet brutally effective striking art in the world.

 

Designed for combat, which makes it martial, yet each fighter has his own strengths and ways to express it, making it an art.

[47MartialMan]

Martial applies to the principals of physical combat that are systematically put together and applied forcefully on aggressors or people who need to be put down. The art comes in as the various individual expessions of those principals. So if we go by that definition then yes boxing is a martial art as is wrestling.

 

For example; take a street brawler. He punches, clinches, kicks, he uses his knees and his elbows when he fights. Now take a thai boxer. He does the same thing, so what is the difference? The difference is that thai boxing took all of those moves and systematized them. Basically perfecting how to effectively knee, punch, kick , elbow and clinch. And by adding drills to boost speed, power, timing, and endurance you have what is (arguably) today the most simple yet brutally effective striking art in the world.

 

But by description, couldn't a experience street brawler be considered as the same?

 

Designed for combat, which makes it martial, yet each fighter has his own strengths and ways to express it, making it an art.

 

Ditto frome above?

[SevenStar]

If they had a systematic way of teaching and training it, then yes.

[47MartialMan]

If they had a systematic way of teaching and training it, then yes.

 

Systematic, per a routine?

[Nick_UKWC]

Wouldn't the difference be that a Martial Art is taught by an instructor and 'street brawling' is self taught.

 

If a brawler fought for 10 years on the street, then opened a school and taught people what he'd learnt from experience then maybe it has been transformed into an art but it would be the art of that one man alone, not definative street brawling.

 

I guess these are the origins of all martial arts.

[Treebranch]

I don't think you can say with any certainty who would win in a fight a Martial Athlete or a Martial Artist. In general if you had both equally physically fit and both had lots of fights under their belts in and out of the ring, then it would be up to the fighter at that moment. Many fighters at the higher levels can fight eachother on different occasions and the outcome is not always the same. Fights are unpredictable and there are many factors that go into winning a fight. Now in my opinion the traditional knife fighter on the street with a knife against a martial athlete will almost definitely win. The difference in philosophy is a big factor. If you train someone for many years to win fights in the ring and follow certain rules subconsciously those rules may filter into the fight as well as the habits learned in ring fighting. Now if the Martial Artists happens to be someone that is a thug and has killed people and doesn't care what happens afterward, well that's something else entirely. What I'm trying to say is winning and killing or survival are completely different motivations and the outcome of these types of situations can't be predicted. That's why the scariest people are the one's that have nothing to lose. So just be careful out there. There is no magic formula. Train the brain it will save you.

[SevenStar]

If you train someone for many years to win fights in the ring and follow certain rules subconsciously those rules may filter into the fight as well as the habits learned in ring fighting.

 

I agree with everything you said except for this. "subconsciously following rules" really isn't a big factor. If you understand the principles of what you are doing, it will work in the ring and in the street. And actually, techniques that are illegal in the ring, such as gouging and kicks to the front of the knee really aren't making you that much more effective anyway.

 

There was an article released a few weeks ago about a thai boxer who chased three guys from his home who broke in and assaulted him mother. Weapons were involved, but the thai boxer prevailed.

[Treebranch]

That's a great story and has probably happened to both TMA and SMA. The whole eye poking thing isn't really the factors that make a sport and combat MA different, it's the frame of mind. By the way poking someone's eye out or spraying someone with pepper spray is going to give you a big advantage, epecially if you are trying to get the hell out the situation. Winning a match and surviving an attack are 2 completely different dynamics. There may very well be TMA that are more sport oriented and Sport MA that are concerned with real situation as the ring. I'm just saying if you are taught to try not to fight unless you are attacked and to be aware of your surroundings you will find yourself not getting into fights. One is teaching how to compete and the other to survive. If I'm attacked I don't care who it is I will do whatever it takes to not be in that situation, even swallow my pride. Just my thoughts.

[SevenStar]

good post. Landing a strike to the eyes will give you an advantage, but the problem is actually landing it. I don't put alot of faith in eye or throat strikes for the fact that the head is moving, hands are up, chin is down, etc. (ideally, anyway). That makes these targets much harder to hit.