The Martial Athlete vs. the Martial Artist

[AngelaG]

right. So, now you have one hand on my hand, one hand out, and none guarding your face...

That's cool, I can deal with that. Because if I have followed my training properly I have initially struck you on the head or neck to shock and stun you, and have possibly even already knocked you out. If not I have grabbed your head (remember I said I was using my hikite hand was holding you head, not your hand!) I pull your head towards me (at this point while you are so off balanced you can hit me all you want - you'll have no power to your strike - and yes we have practiced this in training). At the same time as me pulling your head I also strike back out with my other hand to your head/face/neck - whatever presents itself best. At all times my hands will be on the same level as your head, I have simply adjusted where that level is.

So, you intend on strking enough fear in me that I will basically lose control of my actions, allowing you do pretty much do what you want? um...no. Fighting full contact helps get people over that reaction.

Fear shmear. Firstly I am talking the body's natural reaction, not me dressing up in a scary mask and saying "wooooooo". Secondly I am still talking proper strikes as well. I suggest you read up or actually train in something for a while before you pass judgement on it.

 

Secondly why are we assuming it is two trained martial artists fighting each other, and not just comparing how two MAs would last in a fight situation. The majority of the MAs out there are taught that it for use in SD only, if we are all taught this then the likelihood of two properly trained MAs getting into a fight with other are minimal. I suspect I will never have to use my art against a tranined person once outside the dojo. Obviously I would still train as though I am fighting the hardest, highest trained Mo-fos out there - but that's only because I believe in training to max potential to get max results with min efforts.

actually, physics is on my side

Oookay! I am not going to start childish debates on this.

then, you are not putting them where YOU want them to go, as you said. You are doing what I suggested - letting them go where they were already headed.

 

right there, you said "redirect their power in the way you want it to go" - not really the same thing... I may want to throw you on your head. But, if your energy is going backward, I am going to take you that way instead. They are going where they were already headed, not necessarily where you want them to go. I know what you were trying to say though.

If you know what I was trying to say you are being deliberately nitpicking in order to inflame the situation. Like I said I am not going to resort to childish arguments, I am only interested in rational, educated (friendly ) debate.

 

Using balance points I can still actually take them in a variety of directions based on their body positioning anyway. The human body is not as stable as you think.

[SevenStar]

 

That's cool, I can deal with that. Because if I have followed my training properly I have initially struck you on the head or neck to shock and stun you, and have possibly even already knocked you out.

 

here we go with what if scenarios... these can go on forever. Anyway, have you ever been in a real fight and tried to strike someone in the throat? it's hard. Why? because they are moving and fighting back, and you are trying to strike such a small area. If their chin is down, you have an even harder time. I've told people to try and hit me in the throat while sparring and they were unable... it's just a hard target to hit on demand.

 

Now, if you had my head first, THEN hit me, I can almost see it, as you have some control over my head. but while you are pulling, I still have both of my hands... you would NOT hit my throat.

 

If not I have grabbed your head (remember I said I was using my hikite hand was holding you head, not your hand!) I pull your head towards me (at this point while you are so off balanced you can hit me all you want - you'll have no power to your strike - and yes we have practiced this in training). At the same time as me pulling your head I also strike back out with my other hand to your head/face/neck - whatever presents itself best. At all times my hands will be on the same level as your head, I have simply adjusted where that level is.

 

why are you assuming I am off balance? My head goes low, so do I, first off. I can move to grappling range. Second, you are pulling me forward. I can still generate power that way. If you were taking me backward, that would be a different story.

 

 

Fear shmear. Firstly I am talking the body's natural reaction, not me dressing up in a scary mask and saying "wooooooo". Secondly I am still talking proper strikes as well. I suggest you read up or actually train in something for a while before you pass judgement on it.

 

I suggest you read. Do a search on body alarm reaction - you will get several links about mental response in a fight situation... the effects that adrenaline rush, fear, etc. have on you. As far as natural reaction, if you're talking about "if I hit you here, then your body will move there" I sincerely hope you aren't basing your entire fighting strategy off of that...

 

Secondly why are we assuming it is two trained martial artists fighting each other, and not just comparing how two MAs would last in a fight situation. The majority of the MAs out there are taught that it for use in SD only, if we are all taught this then the likelihood of two properly trained MAs getting into a fight with other are minimal. I suspect I will never have to use my art against a tranined person once outside the dojo. Obviously I would still train as though I am fighting the hardest, highest trained Mo-fos out there - but that's only because I believe in training to max potential to get max results with min efforts.

 

And that is probably a key difference between traditional and sport. I AM training for another skilled opponent. I don't care about an untrained guy. I train for the guy that is training hard to beat me, because I will have to fight him. we train for an inevitability, you train for a possibility. you MIGHT end up in a position where you have to use your skills. you MIGHT run into someone else who is trained. I WILL fight someone again. He WILL be trained.

 

Alot of people are taught to use their MA for SD, but things happen. people get drunk. sober people have bad attitudes. One runs into the other by mistake and he gets ticked. next thing you know, a fight starts. aot of my friends who wrestled loved to fight, and they fought alot. these days, more people are getting into arts like bjj, muay thai and krav maga. There is definitely possibility of running into a trained opponent on the street.

 

Lastly, this thread is about martial athlete vs. martial artist...two trained people. So the direction we're coming from is two trained people, or at least that's what I would assume.

 

If you know what I was trying to say you are being deliberately nitpicking in order to inflame the situation. Like I said I am not going to resort to childish arguments, I am only interested in rational, educated (friendly ) debate.

 

I wasn't nitpicking. I picked up on it when you quoted what I said and said that you were saying the same thing.

 

Using balance points I can still actually take them in a variety of directions based on their body positioning anyway. The human body is not as stable as you think.

 

Tell that to a judoka. Then actually try it. Sure, there are eight points of off balaning in ANY position that you are in, but people are not static. When you try to off balance me, I move. Now, my off balancing points have changed. If I throw a right cross at you, my momentum is committed to going forward. Not only that, but my base foot is behind me - you're not going to throw me backward - it just won't happen. If anything, you could take me at a backward diagonal, but that would be inefficient because you have to completely stop my momentum before you can take me in it's opposite direction. That is why I say you can't necessarily redirect me where YOU want me to go. you have to blend with me and let me go where I am already headed. The only way you would be able to take me backward from said cross is if I have sloppy technique and you sidestep my punch. If my technique is so bad and my momentum is so far forward that my back foot moves up so that I can regain balance, THEN you could throw me backward when my foot moved up - but only because the off balance point changed due to my own sloppy technique.

[AngelaG]

You'll have to excuse me if I don't continue quoting but they way you write as a massive quote but with some bold and some not makes it quite hard for me to read, and takes too long to sort out when I want to quote sections.

 

Firstly if you see my styles you will see that I don't just do one traditional MA (Shotokan), I also cross train in Open Circle Fighting Method. Now, you will probably think I am just being a naive loyal follower but I believe that the Open Circle Institute has some of the leading authorities on subjects such as Body Alarm Reaction, Balance Points, Quadrant Theory etc. I don't need to read up on it, I am trained by highly skilled people every week - they are a mine of information!

 

OCFM is not a sparring style. You can't really spar in it because it is not a game, it is a potentially lethal fighting method, where techniques such as stomping on people's ankles are viable and effective methods. There are no rules whatsoever, it's survival of the fittest. We don't say that you have to kick or punch above the belt. Everything is a viable target. There are practioners in OCFM that would eat you up for breakfast and not even suffer from indigestion (or something )

 

Anyway, I guess that what I actually truly think is that fighting skill is something you have or don't have. There are totally untrained people out there that will rip off your head and spit down your neck. In the same way there are awesome karateka, there are awesome MTists, there are mediocre karateka etc. etc. Well hopefully you get my point! It's more down to the person than any MA they study - that just helps hone the already sharpened blade

 

It's been nice verbally sparring with you, I hope there's no hard feelings

[SevenStar]

something else we disagree on... I don't think it's up to the person. I think it's up to the training methods.

 

I hate the "we're too lethal to spar" thing also. Nothing against your school, but I hate that train of thought. What's a typical class like there?

 

theories of balance points and quadrants are used throughout various MA, judo included, which I train in.

 

I never have hard feelings - it's just a discussion.

[47MartialMan]

Too lethal to spar? Everyone has extreme or devastaing moves. Controlled sparring gives a few benefits.

 

Theories, quadrants, pressure sensitive targets, are fine and dandy-all are common knowledge. Where did OCFM come from? Sounds like someone creating another "tactical" martial art. Same ol-same ol.

[AngelaG]

something else we disagree on... I don't think it's up to the person. I think it's up to the training methods.

 

I hate the "we're too lethal to spar" thing also. Nothing against your school, but I hate that train of thought. What's a typical class like there?

 

theories of balance points and quadrants are used throughout various MA, judo included, which I train in.

 

I never have hard feelings - it's just a discussion.

 

Hey I think we may have to agree to disagree . I probably got it wrong with the two lethal to spar comment - or at least didn't explain it quite how I wanted.

 

I do know that balance points and quadrant theory are used elsewhere, I wasn't saying they were't. It's just you told me to read up on it and I was pointing out that I do actually train up on it - I'm not just an armchair warrior

 

I have two different lessons styles. Shotokan is the usual kihon, kumite, kata. We also do a lot of oyo and bunkai though.

 

OCFM usually starts by us doing something really hot and sweaty, such as one person holding a shield or hook and jab pads whilst the other hits, kicks etc. using as much hip as possible for power. We will also do exercises where we have to do 10 push ups, the pad holder moves away, we get up and find them do a set combo, then do 10 push ups etc. So we do spar but not in a karate way of sparring as it's not all tippy tappy point scoring. It's a bit like that I don't see two boxers really going for it in the ing as "sparring", they are fighting, pure and simple. After we've all got very hot and tired we'll sometimes do scenario exercises, such as someone is grabbing you get out of it, or someone has got on top of you get out of it etc. Then after that we will do a bit more slower paced technical stuff, look at the theory behind what we practice etc.

 

If I want kumite type sparring I can do it in my karate, and it's nice for control, distance, timing, speed, balance etc; but it's completely cr*p for self-defence.

[AngelaG]

Too lethal to spar? Everyone has extreme or devastaing moves. Controlled sparring gives a few benefits.

 

Yeah controlled sparring is great for certain stuff, and I do it elsewhere. OCFM supplements all that. Currently everyone that takes OCFM at our club also takes the karate lessons so there is no need to go through certain things that we may have to if a new person starts but does not do the karate.

Theories, quadrants, pressure sensitive targets, are fine and dandy-all are common knowledge.

I know - I never said they weren't

Where did OCFM come from?

Oh it came from the moon!

Sounds like someone creating another "tactical" martial art. Same ol-same ol.

 

Yawn!

 

Thanks for yet another thought-provoking and meaningful (and obviously well-researched post MM . Do you realise how obtuse you sound making such sweeping judgements on the back of a post from one practitioner in the art? In my eyes OCFM is not really a martial art actually, there is much martial but very little art. In the same way I choose to think that sports such as boxing are not martial arts. Yes the boxers are very skilled, highly trained, hard athletes and could hand me my butt in a bag, but IMO they are all Martial and no Art. The art comes stuff like the old traditions carrying on that do nothing to make one a better fighter but carry on nevertheless.

 

I love my karate, and if I had to choose between oCFM and karate karate would in hands down every day. OCFM has it's plus sides and as a self-defence thing it is very good, and it has some fantastic teachers who are also fantastic MAs across a wide range of styles, they are all really enthusiastic about what they teach and nothing is hidden from anyone. A beginner can be taught exactly the same lesson as someone who has been attending for years.

 

So anyway, I'll keep on studying my "same-ol same-ol" if it's all the same to you. I don't really care what you think as I am the one that studies it, I am the one who sees the benefits it brings and only the people that actually look into it properly and attend at least one training session are the one's that are fully equipped to judge IMO!

[47MartialMan]

Gee AngelaG,

 

I did not think you would get offended-I apologize.

 

In reference to same ol-same ol, no matter how it is titled, tactical systems, have a common teaching.

 

In that retrospect, some people believe they are a recently new concept. This is what I had meant-that there is nothing "new" that wasn't taught long ago.

 

In your thinking, if I am not worng, tactical systems are not martial arts?

 

What old traditions? Besides old traditions-define art.

 

In reference to the definition of martial art, how would you define it?

[AngelaG]

Gee AngelaG,

 

I did not think you would get offended-I apologize.

 

In reference to same ol-same ol, no matter how it is titled, tactical systems, have a common teaching.

 

In that retrospect, some people believe they are a recently new concept. This is what I had meant-that there is nothing "new" that wasn't taught long ago.

 

In your thinking, if I am not worng, tactical systems are not martial arts?

 

What old traditions? Besides old traditions-define art.

 

In reference to the definition of martial art, how would you define it?

 

I just felt like your post was little mocking. I don't really care if OCFM is like a million other things out there because it works for me. It does exactly what I want and need it to do. I enjoy the instruction from the people within it, so why should I care what anybody else is or is not doing? It is not taught as some sort of new concept, it's a plain and simple this is this, use it/don't use it up to you. But you have to live with yourself if you beat someone up, stamp on their ankles and leave them crippled - they lead the way then we choose our own path.

 

I don't know what you mean about tactical systems, I can only really give an educated opinion on what I have studied. Anything else would be pure speculation. But I see my Shotokan as an art. The traditions such as bowing, dojo kun, respect for those that have gone before, courtesy, to me make it a bit different. And the fact that it should only ever be used as a last resort in self defence. I guess there are karate clubs out there that I feel are taking the art out of their systems. Not that I disagree with this, as I've said before everyone has their niche, who am I to decide what other people can and can't do?

[SevenStar]

 

Hey I think we may have to agree to disagree .

 

Actually, I think we agree - you illustrated that yourself, somewhat:

 

I have two different lessons styles. Shotokan is the usual kihon, kumite, kata. We also do a lot of oyo and bunkai though.

 

OCFM usually starts by us doing something really hot and sweaty, such as one person holding a shield or hook and jab pads whilst the other hits, kicks etc. using as much hip as possible for power. We will also do exercises where we have to do 10 push ups, the pad holder moves away, we get up and find them do a set combo, then do 10 push ups etc. So we do spar but not in a karate way of sparring as it's not all tippy tappy point scoring. It's a bit like that I don't see two boxers really going for it in the ing as "sparring", they are fighting, pure and simple. After we've all got very hot and tired we'll sometimes do scenario exercises, such as someone is grabbing you get out of it, or someone has got on top of you get out of it etc. Then after that we will do a bit more slower paced technical stuff, look at the theory behind what we practice etc.

 

see? two completely different training methods. Then you said:

 

If I want kumite type sparring I can do it in my karate, and it's nice for control, distance, timing, speed, balance etc; but it's completely cr*p for self-defence.

 

If the karate school trained in a similar manner to your OCFM school, do you think it would be more effective? why or why not?