The Martial Athlete vs. the Martial Artist

[Hanzou]

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I need some honest opinions here; Who here feels that a martial athlete has a significant advantage over a martial artist? I ask this because me and several of my friends got into a pretty heated discussion involving this very same topic.

 

Here's my personal opinion; I feel that martial athletes are usually in far better physical condition, are better conditioned, and can take blows far better than someone trained in traditional MA. Take a muay thai kickboxer vs. karate for example, a boxer is usually running miles a day, skipping rope, in the ring sparring with gloves, doing weight training, etc. The karate-ka is usually doing katas, lightweight kumite (if that), and learning impractical techniques (yes the reverse punch IS an impractical technique, and little to no strength or endurance training. Sad thing is, many traditional martial artists believe that strength training and endurance don't matter.

 

Sorry but if both Ray Lewis and Bill Gates trained in Shotokan for 5 years and decided to have it out, my money would all be on Mr. Lewis. Of course Ray Lewis would have the advantage over Mr. Gates regardless of what style either man took. Which is why I think its a major diservice to tell people in TMAs that strength and endurance training is meaningless. Its also why I feel that martial athletes have a big advantage over martial artists.

 

Sorry about the rant.

[joe2002]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your overall argument, because you said it was between martial athlete vs. martial artist (and I assuming you meant real traditional karateka or someone who practices a traditional art in a traditional way, not someone who is lazy or/and studying in a McDojo).

 

The reason I disagree is because the training you list for the traditional stylist sounds like something you would find in a McDojo, not in a traditional school. Or practiced by someone who would like to claim they really train when they don’t.

 

Yes, kata is a part of the traditionalist training. The thing about kata is that you can get a pretty good cardio workout if you are doing the kata correctly, and not just going through the motions.

 

You also listed lightweight kumite. I know that with beginners and many lower ranks you could call their kumite workout lightweight, but you will find this with anybody first learning to spar. As time progresses so does the nature of the kumite the student is capable of. Much of this depends on the instructor and how they like to progress there student. I have known quite a few that the their sparring regiment is pretty unforgiving of those who are not prepared (i.e. broken ribs and the like).

 

As far as your impractical technique point, I found lacking. The reason is because you use the reverse punch as an example, but the thing about the reverse punch is that anybody training in any type of empty hand combat art or sport has that punch. It may not look the same but the fundamentals of that punch are common everywhere. So that punch is not just something unique to karate. The other thing is that I have had to use that punch in an actual street fight, so I can say that it is a valid technique.

 

Now as I listed above, I don’t agree with your overall argument, and I don’t agree that it’s as all encompassing as you’re presenting. But I do think there is a valid point in your argument. There are many who do not train on their own so they do not gain the physical conditioning that many martial athletes have. And would therefore be in trouble when fighting someone who does, but I would not say that they would straight out win cause win it comes to actual combat the situation always dictates.

[Radok]

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I need some honest opinions here; Who here feels that a martial athlete has a significant advantage over a martial artist? I ask this because me and several of my friends got into a pretty heated discussion involving this very same topic.

 

Here's my personal opinion; I feel that martial athletes are usually in far better physical condition, are better conditioned, and can take blows far better than someone trained in traditional MA. Take a muay thai kickboxer vs. karate for example, a boxer is usually running miles a day, skipping rope, in the ring sparring with gloves, doing weight training, etc. The karate-ka is usually doing katas, lightweight kumite (if that), and learning impractical techniques (yes the reverse punch IS an impractical technique, and little to no strength or endurance training. Sad thing is, many traditional martial artists believe that strength training and endurance don't matter.

 

Sorry but if both Ray Lewis and Bill Gates trained in Shotokan for 5 years and decided to have it out, my money would all be on Mr. Lewis. Of course Ray Lewis would have the advantage over Mr. Gates regardless of what style either man took. Which is why I think its a major diservice to tell people in TMAs that strength and endurance training is meaningless. Its also why I feel that martial athletes have a big advantage over martial artists.

 

Sorry about the rant.

 

I lift weights, run miles everyday, spar hard, and do katas. Yet I am in Karate. In traditional Martial arts, they trained X-tremely hard in the old days, like insanely hard. The stuff you see today is McDojo material. Muay Thai is a traditionalo art, by the way.

[TheDevilAside]

This is a horribly stereotypical thread... your entire argument is based on assumptions.

 

You assume that Karate is a single martial art. It's not. There's thousainds of styles which are as unique as there are many. That's like comparing the United States to the other half of the universe.

 

Then you assume that all traditional martial artists, like Joe pointed out, are lazy, weak, unmotivated slobs. What makes you think that? Do you know how hard the Shaolin Monks train? Now there's a feat of strength, not to mention amazing coordination.

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I need some honest opinions here; Who here feels that a martial athlete has a significant advantage over a martial artist?

Now, to answer your question, yes. By your definition of what a martial athlete it and what a martial artist is, the martial athelete will definitely have a significant advantage.

[Master Jules]

Hanzou.....LOL.....are you kiddin' me ?....

[SevenStar]

As always, I am going to be different than the majority.

 

I agree with his post, although he did use somewhat poor examples. In general, the avg tma will not train as hard as the avg sport fighter. When someone goes to a thai boxing class, what do they expect? when they go to a kung fu class, what do they expect? sport fighting has the rep is has because of the training that it has. It is these training methods that make all the difference. Radok lifts weights, runs, etc and he trains in karate. BUT, radok, do you do that on your own, or does the class do it? The conditioning in sport fighting is part of the class. drilling, bagwork, sparring, etc. you are conditioning while you train.

 

This is the opposite of how much of the tma I've seen trains. As was stated, kata CAN be good cardio if you go through your forms fast and repetitively. I think that is great. Do you do that in EVERY class though, or on your own? If you do it in class, for how long of a duration? Also, my class will meet on the weekends to do extra conditioning - we go to the track and run laps, run the bleachers, do ab work, etc. then go back to the gym for some pad and bagwork. sport fighters tend to train hard because they are training for competitions. TMA may never fight. They train for a possibility; we train for an inevitability.

[SevenStar]

Muay Thai is a traditionalo art, by the way.

 

that is correct, to an extent. muay has been around in some form for a LONG time, but the the current muay - muay thai - and it's gloved format ahs only been around since the 1920's making it modern.

[kle1n]

It all depends on the dojo.The problem is that there are more karate mc dojos around than muay thai has.Pheraps that gives the wrong image.

[Vito]

what maybe youre thinking of is the martial artist (from kung fu to wushu to tkd and karate where the little kids get camaflauge to black belts before they can drive) to the fighters (the wrestlers, boxers, bjj and mt guys).

[SevenStar]

It all depends on the dojo.The problem is that there are more karate mc dojos around than muay thai has.Pheraps that gives the wrong image.

 

I don't think that's the case. Even in the "hardcore" traditional schools, how many of them are training like thai boxers? It's merely an issue of training methods used.