meditation

[dear john]

when i do this for a long time i start to feel this weird sinking feeling, i never get it when lying down.

 

please give some examples of these lying positions for meditation.

[Sasori_Te]

The positions don't matter nearly as much as the mindset. What exactly is it that you want to know? There are several different examples that I know but they all work toward the same goal.

[ncole_91]

Here, go to an empty room, where it is quiet. Sit down in any position, in a couch, crossed legged, seiza or w/e you want. Breath like this, Inhale for 5 secs, wait 2 secs, exhale for 2 secs, inhale for 5 secs and repeat. Just focus on your breathing....do this till your relaxed, and your done...

[markusan]

The weird sinking feeling is what the theravadan tradition calls first Jahna. It is the first of the eight stages of meditation, the first four being physically definable and the second four being the mental or mind versions of the first four. If you want to progress your meditation sit with that sinking feeling for a while and then formulate an intention to progress your meditation, tell yourself that you are now ready for the next stage. Now focus on your mouth and scalp and feel a smile forming. When you are relaxed and ready you will progress to the second Jahna which is characterised by a feeling of joy. At each Jahna there are two things to notice and remember to make repetition of the exercise easier. Really look closely at the sensations you are experiencing and remember the state of mind it took to get there, the single pointed concentration and the intention to move forward. (You describe not being allowed to move your eyes, I think inadvertently your eye position has become your point of mental focus. That's ok but it is a very delicate state. Maybe Concentrating on your breath would be more robust and you'd be less likely to be distracted. With practice you'll be able to get out of your chair and change your position or even chage to a walking meditation and still maintain your meditative state. With lots of practice you can carry over a meditative state to day to day activity)

 

One trap, particularly with second jahna, which is a very pleasant place to be, is to want to stay there. Nothing wrong with that, but there's better stuff ahead so again formulate that intention to progress.

[47MartialMan]

The weird sinking feeling is what the theravadan tradition calls first Jahna. It is the first of the eight stages of meditation, the first four being physically definable and the second four being the mental or mind versions of the first four.

 

Meditation, takes on many forms/ways of study-which are you speaking of-I assume Buddhist? In speaking of Buddhist meditation, there are two types. I'm sorry, but in accordance to many info and references on meditation, I do not see a reference on Jahna-perhaps you have mis-spelled? Perhaps you mean Jhana or Apana?

 

Do you know what Jhana or Apana translates?

 

And do you know what is Theravada?

 

And do you know what is bhavana?

 

Where did you reference meditation as 8 stages? I see reference to 4 or 5.

 

BTW-the numeral 8, has a hidden meaning.

 

As far as stages, this can be numbering 1-9. What are your references?

[markusan]

Thanks martial man for correcting my spelling mistake. It is Jhana, and my understanding of that term is that it means meditative absorption, or meditation stage. My old Theravadan teacher Pip Ransom, told me its literal translation is merely meditation and it is the root of the Japanese word Zen which also means simply meditation.. Pip was a student of the German buddhist nun Ayya Khema who started the Wat Temple near Sydney Australia. I refer you to her book When the Iron Eagle Flies, Penguin London 1991. This book deals with the Jhanas in great detail and outlines eight in two sets of four. Another book is an old classic, Concentration and Meditation, by Christmas Humphries, Element Publishing, Rockport MA, 1968 pp 179 to 186. He describes eight Jhana in two groups ie rupa 1-4 and arupa 1-4. and again describes the characteristics of each but not necessarily the transitions.

 

A third reference is The Opening Of The Wisdom Eye, the Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso, Quest Books, Wheaton Ill, 1966. pp 84-104. It is one of the D.L's earlier books and I found it a difficult read early in my meditation practice, but much clearer now in hindsight some three decades later. On p84 he says..." the worldly attainment of the absorprions is of two sorts, of form and of formlessness both of which have four levels" he then goes on to explain how to attain each level and progress to the next.

 

My final reference ( though there are many more readily available) is a non-buddhist text, Peace Of Mind, by Dr Ian Gawler, Hill of Content, Melbourne, 1987. Ian was afflicted with a virulent form of cancer in the 70s and survived using a variety of conventional and alternative treatments. He lost a leg and several ribs in the process. For the last 20 years or more he has run the Gawler Institute near Melbourne teaching cancer sufferers and others profound meditation. He also travels the country teaching meditation. On pp 32 and 33 of his book he describes seven stages of meditation. From my limited knowledge he appears to be describing, very accurately the first seven Jhanas. I cannot comment on the nature of the eighth as to this date that state has eluded me. However Ian wrote that book 17 years ago and I have not spoken to him for two or three years, so he may have another stage to add to the list by now.

 

As I say I am no expert, just a student, and In my first post was merely suggesting that dear john enjoy the sinking feeling he experiences, but at the same time I'd suggest there's more. Reading is ok but I've found the important thing is to practice. To me using meditation only as a form of relaxation is like using your home computer only to add up your shopping bill.

 

By the way I am not buddhist, but I like the buddhist methods, especially Theravadan insight meditation and Zen methods(Koan study, Shikantaza and Kinhin) for their simplicity and lack of overt mysticism and spiritualism. Methods aside, I think they all teach us simply to be awake in the moment.

[47MartialMan]

markusan-"This book deals with the Jhanas in great detail and outlines eight in two sets of four."

 

Ah, I see where you get the eight. I thought it was a "straight" eight that you were in reference to.

 

I had several Buddhist sources for decades, overseas corrrespondance (pre "Internet") and practitioners in a local temple, as which has many visiting monks from all over the globe. But my most prodiment mentor, is a college professor whome teaches courses in this specifically. Whom had become a martial art student of mine. It is strange when our roles are reversed as we switch from each subject/topic. As we exchange our "teachings", we also give each other "gifts". His are many publications that I have to keep re-reading.

 

Perhaps explaining the Jhanas, or Apanas (Pali) maybe in too much depth for some on this board.

 

Did you know that some Buddhists in Tibet do not consider China as a "Conquering Country"? They believe Tibet was always under Chinese rule for centuries.

 

After discussion with them, I come to the conclussion that they have been "instilled" with that "mindset".

 

Speaking in terms of the Ch'an (Ch'en) Buddhism sect, these particular Buddhists never have the intention to go out and “beg” for their livelihood. They are self-sufficient whom “make their own way”. Which has one to ponder; “How can a Monk, from that sect, charge for lessons?” Another thing to ponder, from the further research on Ch’an/Ch’en Buddhism, has one to wonder;that "Why would such a devotee, to such a temple, that had a specific origin and philosophy, meditation as insight to enlightenment, become one with a main affixation with teaching a fighting method for monetary compensation? And yet, such a temple, with its devotees, was in a remote mountain region, to escape contact of regular social order. Why would such, become known, through commercialism and other propaganda, to put forth claims of being a skilled instructor in fighting methods and do so openly?"

 

Reminds me in reference of the Kalama Suttra.