karate philosophy VS. female vanity.

[Kazuya]

Sorry for the long post btw

 

One thing i forgot to mention: Is there a place where it's oficially said girls can't wear makeup? Is in the organization statement? Is in the dojo kun? Or the nijukun? Is a requeriment in the tests along proper stance and gyaku zuki? (Humm, let's check, gyaku zuki=good, mae geri=fast. Makeup: she is wearing it. FAILED).

 

I think the only official statement done is the one made by the instructor of the dojo but nothing more.

[Drunken Monkey]

it probably doesn't say anywhere that she can't relieve herself on the floor either......

[Luckykboxer]

oh god give me a break here.

 

if you dont think a Gi that is custom made to fit you better, and be able to take wear and tear better is going to help you perform better then you are just arguing to argue and are not looking at facts or common sense.

 

But i guess thats why Drunken Monkey added his comment... It should be common sense.

 

Trust me Kazuya you dont want to be a smart * with me because i can most definitely trade it back and forth as good as anyone...

 

so your cutesy little post about if someone wears cologne or perfume should they bring a bar of soap is just lame.

 

this whole commentary below just makes me drop my jaw in disbelief... you cant honestly believe this can you???

Yes, and using makeup is not for show off, it's a bonus for the clients who visit you in your job. It's about presentation. Having little time to remove it is acceptable and if there is not time the last thing anybody should see is her makeup.. Instructors should be focusing on her technique, students should be focusing in how their kicks or punches are being executed, not how the girl in the left looks like.

 

What i meant in my original post was that there are people who buy gis just for the sake of showing off and they dare to complain when a girl is using make up with the showing off argument. Not everybody is like that but there are men like this certainly.

 

fisr of all if makeup isnt to show off then whats it for? Is having something for presentation not showing off? Come on now lets not try to get tripped up with semantics here.

 

Now as far as having little time to remove makeup I just spoke to my wife, who wears make up, just not to the karate studio... it takes less then 5 minutes to completely remove her makeup and thats not even trying to hurry. All the ingredients fit very nicely in a tiny little bag, so dont pretend there is no time to remove makeup either.

 

As far as instructors not looking at her makeup but her technique.... they will thats for sure, but the no makeup rule isnt for the instructor as much as for the other students, unless the instructors are doing contact work with the person wearing makeup...... Once again its a pretty simple task of removing it that takes less then 5 minutes, and wont create any distractions.... Are you the same type of person that feels that churches shopuld change their religion to accomadate people who want to partake in only part of the religion and not the whole thing? Tell you what... how about if i want to smoke a cigar while im teaching class, should i be allowed to do so? I mean after all peopel should be focused on their karate not my cigar or the smoke right?

 

As far as your comment about peopel buying Gis to show off, I think you are confusing something here, the Karate studio sets the requirements for what a Gi should be. A white Gi is a White Gi period... if the tag says Tokaido, or Shureido, or KI, doesnt really show readily, so knowing what was spent on a karate Gi is not really going to be viewable and distractable in teh studio, I mean come on.

Why can't a girl train with makeup and have better technique than a girl without makeup?

 

Are you kidding me? I tell you what show me the makeup that makes yoru technique better and Ill start wearing it.

Should the instructor be distracted by my normal street clothes instead of my technique? Of course not. It's the same with makeup. Should the students be distracted by my normal street clothes? Again, of course not. It's the same with makeup.

 

Ok so now you are talking about wearing street clothes to class as well?

 

Why not train Naked, nothing wrong with the human body and then noone has to feel bad about not being able to afford the best Gi money can buy?

 

 

In your analogy performance tires should give a better result in your overall experience while wearing a silk jacket is just well... clothes... which don't make your car better.

 

Gee kind of sounds alot like wearing Makeup to karate classes doesnt it? Maybe your coming around....

 

I am really dumbfounded by this post as it doesnt seem to be founded in common sense or fact as much as in a pure desire to just argue /shrug

[Kazuya]

oh god give me a break here.

 

if you dont think a Gi that is custom made to fit you better, and be able to take wear and tear better is going to help you perform better then you are just arguing to argue and are not looking at facts or common sense.

I think we should perform in equal conditions with our without a custom made gi. Ok, let's think: i run into a fight when getting out of the dojo: i won't perform as good as i should because i don't have my custom made gi, just a normal one...

 

I see the psychological effect that a gi which is more comfortable can bring but the technique lies in oneself not what you are wearing. Thats's my point. Same with makeup: technique lies in the girl not in the makeup she is using. If it's not causing a problem then why to take i out? And there is a tangible problem besides i don't like it?

 

 

Trust me Kazuya you dont want to be a smart * with me because i can most definitely trade it back and forth as good as anyone...

 

Trust me Luckyboxer, it's just a text based forum: who wants to trade it back and forth? it's just opinions, nothing else.

 

 

so your cutesy little post about if someone wears cologne or perfume should they bring a bar of soap is just lame.

Why didn't you notice the at the end of the sentence? You take a hit where there is none.

 

 

Yes, and using makeup is not for show off, it's a bonus for the clients who visit you in your job. It's about presentation. Having little time to remove it is acceptable and if there is not time the last thing anybody should see is her makeup.. Instructors should be focusing on her technique, students should be focusing in how their kicks or punches are being executed, not how the girl in the left looks like.

 

What i meant in my original post was that there are people who buy gis just for the sake of showing off and they dare to complain when a girl is using make up with the showing off argument. Not everybody is like that but there are men like this certainly.

 

first of all if makeup isnt to show off then whats it for? Is having something for presentation not showing off? Come on now lets not try to get tripped up with semantics here.

 

Exactly, let's not start with semantics here. My original point you seem to miss is that we, as a part of the society try to look presentable, acceptable to the eyes of others. When working presentation it's not for showing off itself: tell me, if you go to buy the same product in 2 different stores and there is one girl selling it who looks good and the way she sells the product is good too and in the other store is the contrary: would you buy it from the girl and store that looks better? I'm almost sure. In these days of competition presentation of the sellers is a must, not for showing off but to make sure the possible buyers see the store as something that looks good, personal included, in other words, presentation. It's even studied in some administrative careers. She is working, presentation is part of the service a store/mall/anything offers.

 

Would you use an old and yellow gi? Why do you always use a white ironed gi? Bacause we always want to look acceptable to others, not because of showing off. You know people would start to talk bad about you and your gi. So you try to please them in a incouncious way. It's the same with makeup, still there are men who think a girl with makeup want to show off instead of just trying to look good in the eyes of society. In societies where there is no makeup, girls try to look good in the way such society says it "should" be done, same with men. We live in a makeup society so we men should deal with it instead of trying to control even that aspect of the girls lives.

Now as far as having little time to remove makeup I just spoke to my wife, who wears make up, just not to the karate studio... it takes less then 5 minutes to completely remove her makeup and thats not even trying to hurry. All the ingredients fit very nicely in a tiny little bag, so dont pretend there is no time to remove makeup either.

 

As far as instructors not looking at her makeup but her technique.... they will thats for sure, but the no makeup rule isnt for the instructor as much as for the other students, unless the instructors are doing contact work with the person wearing makeup...... Once again its a pretty simple task of removing it that takes less then 5 minutes, and wont create any distractions....

Yes, but what would you prefer? 5 minutes removing make up of 5 more minutes of training before the class starts. Are you sure isn't just your preference about no makeup instead of some other valid reason? Are not you trying to take a step further in what a instructor controls in his students lifes? When there is a rule in a dojo is because of a reason: no jewerly: it can hurt. No shoes: they damage the tatami and kicks could harm the face severely. But what about makeup? They only valid reason is that it could leave a trace of it in a gi. Is there any other? Or just preference?

 

(please, there is no harsh in this, just an opinion, don't take it personally, i'm not )

 

And btw: what is the reason for using a gi? I have to answers: one, Funakoshi wanted it after his reunion with Jigoro Kano. 2: it serves to bring to the class a feeling of being part of something private, special to the ones who take part in it only. There is not enough reason to think a gi need to be used to train karate. Hell even funakoshi didn't wear it before his travel to Japan. As i said, technique over makeup or gi.

 

 

Are you the same type of person that feels that churches shopuld change their religion to accomadate people who want to partake in only part of the religion and not the whole thing? Tell you what... how about if i want to smoke a cigar while im teaching class, should i be allowed to do so? I mean after all peopel should be focused on their karate not my cigar or the smoke right?

 

In fact i practice atheism

 

What i'm originally asking is a valid reason for not using it, so far i can only found the trace one and preference of the instructor. Any other?

 

The cigar and smoke makes harm to your students, makeup don't so your analogy is faulty. Cigar and smoke could cause cancer and the risk levels up when you are inhalating it in a passive way(not smoking it). Does make up cause this? Im pretty sure it doesn't so your analogy is faulty.

 

In other words, if it's not causing any harm why is there a reason to not allow it? Just because we were taught this way? Because we prefer our students not to wear it and because we men say it?

 

 

As far as your comment about peopel buying Gis to show off, I think you are confusing something here, the Karate studio sets the requirements for what a Gi should be. A white Gi is a White Gi period... if the tag says Tokaido, or Shureido, or KI, doesnt really show readily, so knowing what was spent on a karate Gi is not really going to be viewable and distractable in teh studio, I mean come on.

Exactly. A white gi is a white gi and nothing more. Your technqiue is what matters so why should i spend insane amounts of money in a super deluxe gi? It may not happen in the US but outside them there are not tokaido or shureido or anything like that. So buying one of them is really expensive, still there are people who buy gi or belts specially made in Japan just to have the priviledge of wearing it in a place where there is not such brand. In my experience these guys have been the same guys who are saying makeup is for showing off. It's not fair since they are doing the same but since they are men... they can have a valid opinion of girls while girls have to stick to their opinions.

 

Does a female instructor says is bad or is only us men trying to control that aspect of girls lifes?

 

Again, it's a generalization of my country so don't take any harm, i'm not intending it.

Why can't a girl train with makeup and have better technique than a girl without makeup?

 

Are you kidding me? I tell you what show me the makeup that makes yoru technique better and Ill start wearing it.

Why do you seem to miss my point? I say there is no difference between a girl with makeup and one without it, what matters is technique but the opinions of the ones who have posted seem to dismiss a girl's technique just because she is using makeup: the girl is using make up? she must have bad technique, she won't take it too seriously, i mean c'mon, makeup don't convert automatically a girl in a stereotype as you are pretending it to be. That was my original post.

 

 

Should the instructor be distracted by my normal street clothes instead of my technique? Of course not. It's the same with makeup. Should the students be distracted by my normal street clothes? Again, of course not. It's the same with makeup.

 

Ok so now you are talking about wearing street clothes to class as well?

 

Why not train Naked, nothing wrong with the human body and then noone has to feel bad about not being able to afford the best Gi money can buy?

Are not you one of those traditionalist guys who think that only because you were taught to use gi in the dojo you should use it always without question?

 

I use a gi in a regular basis but as i said a few paragraphs above there is no reason to use a gi other than the feeling of being a unit. Regular Schools use it not because it has an effect in what a student learn but because of some sense of unit, why should it be different in a dojo? Is there really a benefit in the learning other than the "feeling more comfortable" thing? Or is because since a dojo is some kind of school there should be uniforms too?

 

Please don't argument a gi makes karate because as i said, there were no gi's in karate before Funakoshi followed Kano's advice. They used train in street clothes, why the then?

 

 

In your analogy performance tires should give a better result in your overall experience while wearing a silk jacket is just well... clothes... which don't make your car better.

 

Gee kind of sounds alot like wearing Makeup to karate classes doesnt it? Maybe your coming around....

 

I am really dumbfounded by this post as it doesnt seem to be founded in common sense or fact as much as in a pure desire to just argue /shrug

 

It doesn't sound alot like wearing makeup: in your analogy one things makes you car better and the other one not. In my analogy the gi nor the makeup makje your karate better but since you seem to think a gi makes for better karate then you are not gonna get what i'm rying to say.

 

I'm leaving this thread btw. When some people get out of their comfort zone because somebody else dares to question what they took for granted they can take some hits where there is none.

[Luckykboxer]

/chuckles

 

ok this is my last attempt to reason here...

I think we should perform in equal conditions with our without a custom made gi. Ok, let's think: i run into a fight when getting out of the dojo: i won't perform as good as i should because i don't have my custom made gi, just a normal one...

 

I see the psychological effect that a gi which is more comfortable can bring but the technique lies in oneself not what you are wearing. Thats's my point. Same with makeup: technique lies in the girl not in the makeup she is using. If it's not causing a problem then why to take i out? And there is a tangible problem besides i don't like it?

 

Lets remember we are not talking about anything other then inside a martial arts school... I could care less what peopel wear on the bodies or faces outside the school. I dont even care what they wear in the school...

 

This is however geared towards a standard martial arts studio that requires a uniform be worn and training be done. Once we agree on that we can move on..

 

If you want to get into what people wear or how they act outside the studio then thats an entirely different topic then we are discussing here.

 

 

Why didn't you notice the at the end of the sentence? You take a hit where there is none.

 

umm i dont knwo what you mean by take a hit, but your comment was meant to be sarcastic, or cute, or whatever you want to call it... thats all my point was.. /shrug

Exactly, let's not start with semantics here. My original point you seem to miss is that we, as a part of the society try to look presentable, acceptable to the eyes of others. When working presentation it's not for showing off itself: tell me, if you go to buy the same product in 2 different stores and there is one girl selling it who looks good and the way she sells the product is good too and in the other store is the contrary: would you buy it from the girl and store that looks better? I'm almost sure. In these days of competition presentation of the sellers is a must, not for showing off but to make sure the possible buyers see the store as something that looks good, personal included, in other words, presentation. It's even studied in some administrative careers. She is working, presentation is part of the service a store/mall/anything offers.

 

/boggle... this has absolutely nothing at all to do with the topic on hand.. an interesting off topic, but still has nothing to do with the conversation at all.

Would you use an old and yellow gi? Why do you always use a white ironed gi? Bacause we always want to look acceptable to others, not because of showing off. You know people would start to talk bad about you and your gi. So you try to please them in a incouncious way. It's the same with makeup, still there are men who think a girl with makeup want to show off instead of just trying to look good in the eyes of society. In societies where there is no makeup, girls try to look good in the way such society says it "should" be done, same with men. We live in a makeup society so we men should deal with it instead of trying to control even that aspect of the girls lives.

 

umm no i wouldnt use an old yellow Gi because thats not what the requirements are for our Gi. And the only reason I clean my Gi at all is so it doesnt smell, and isnt dirty to offend myself and others, no other reason, I actually dont Iron my GI, and dont really expect that from anyone as long as its clean. The problem is the karate studio is a society in and of itself, it isnt the streets, it isnt the dance club, it isnt your grocery store, etc.etc.etc... Its a an environment seperate from teh rest of your existance, unless your entire existance is martial arts. I have never seen anywhere in any martial art that asks for anyoen to wear perfume and Makeup or cologne.. As a matter of fact I have seen the exact opposite, the only times i have ever seen it mentioned at all is when it is asked to not be used period.

Yes, but what would you prefer? 5 minutes removing make up of 5 more minutes of training before the class starts. Are you sure isn't just your preference about no makeup instead of some other valid reason? Are not you trying to take a step further in what a instructor controls in his students lifes? When there is a rule in a dojo is because of a reason: no jewerly: it can hurt. No shoes: they damage the tatami and kicks could harm the face severely. But what about makeup? They only valid reason is that it could leave a trace of it in a gi. Is there any other? Or just preference?

 

(please, there is no harsh in this, just an opinion, don't take it personally, i'm not )

 

And btw: what is the reason for using a gi? I have to answers: one, Funakoshi wanted it after his reunion with Jigoro Kano. 2: it serves to bring to the class a feeling of being part of something private, special to the ones who take part in it only. There is not enough reason to think a gi need to be used to train karate. Hell even funakoshi didn't wear it before his travel to Japan. As i said, technique over makeup or gi.

 

Ok first of all, Makeup is a corrosive substance, it can ruin karate GIs, It can stain the carpet, It can create aggitation and allergies in some students. Nobody wants to have someone elses makeup on their Gi, its offensive, Show me one person who wants to have a strangers makeup on their clothes, and besides the sexual references which would be your only valid response here..... which is in appropriate int eh studio anyways.

 

As far as a reason for wearing a Gi ill give you many.

 

first it creates a standard uniform to help with the discipline structure when training.

 

second it creates an atmosphere where there is not competition to dress nicer then other people.. a White Gi looks like a White Gi looks like a white GI... the only differences are hardly noticible except to the person wearing it.

 

third it is a functional garb to wear and train in.

 

fourth it covers for the most part any body parts that may cause reaction of embarassment or desire in class.

 

fifth its traditional and has become part of the martial arts mystique.

 

I am sure other people can come up with many many more.

In other words, if it's not causing any harm why is there a reason to not allow it? Just because we were taught this way? Because we prefer our students not to wear it and because we men say it?

 

Well I know makeup can cause harm to clothes, and to people. If you cant agree with that statement, then it doesnt matter what i say you will disagree. /shrug

Exactly. A white gi is a white gi and nothing more. Your technqiue is what matters so why should i spend insane amounts of money in a super deluxe gi? It may not happen in the US but outside them there are not tokaido or shureido or anything like that. So buying one of them is really expensive, still there are people who buy gi or belts specially made in Japan just to have the priviledge of wearing it in a place where there is not such brand. In my experience these guys have been the same guys who are saying makeup is for showing off. It's not fair since they are doing the same but since they are men... they can have a valid opinion of girls while girls have to stick to their opinions.

 

Once again the absolute only part of a custom made Gi, or a heavy weight Gi that stands out is the tag... a 1 inch by 1 inch piece of cloth...

 

I dont know anyone out of a hundreds and hundreds of martial arts students i have seen that buy a high quality gi to show off..They buy it because they want a Gi that wont fall apart. A light weight Gi on me has a lifespan of about a month tops.. now at 30 dollars a pop after 6 months I have already spent as much as a Tokaido or other heavy weight Gi will cost that lasts me several years. Also a standard made Gi that fits my thighs is huge in the waist and long in the legs, so i have to have it altered anyways.... put that cost in and your adding more money.... It is actually a bargain in the long run if you train for a long time to buy a better quality GI.... for practical purposes not to show off...

 

The absolute only thing I can see as showing off would be people and studios that allow you to put as many patches and advertisements as you can fit on them.... JiuJitsu escpecially comes to mind.... Now try to be a woman and wear makeup to one of the BJJ classes.... you wont make it long...why? Because its offensive to have someones makeup smeared all over you, and soon thsoe women wont have anyone willing to work with them. And your comment about womens and mens opinions is absolutely ridiculous. I have yet to see any of the studios that acts this way, not in southern california by a longshot!

Does a female instructor says is bad or is only us men trying to control that aspect of girls lifes?

 

I have no idea what you mean by this comment.. I dont see anything about men controlling womens lifes... not in America... As a matter of fact women have much much more power then men..

but the opinions of the ones who have posted seem to dismiss a girl's technique just because she is using makeup: the girl is using make up? she must have bad technique, she won't take it too seriously, i mean c'mon, makeup don't convert automatically a girl in a stereotype as you are pretending it to be. That was my original post.

 

you reading this thread? because I didnt get that impression anywhere... I dont think anyoen said a woman who wears makeup cant be a good martial artist, It was said that makeup doesnt belong in the studio though. It adds absolutely nothing positive and only adds problems or possible problems.

Please don't argument a gi makes karate because as i said, there were no gi's in karate before Funakoshi followed Kano's advice. They used train in street clothes, why the then?

 

Ok first of all I never said a GI makes the karate or the martial artist..

 

And secondly the ideas of uniforms did not start with Funakoshi... Uniforms were worn for thousands of years before he was around.

 

and we are talking about inside the karate studio once again...

 

apparantly you seem to want a bunch of peopel training in street cloths and makeup /shrug... maybe an exageration but it seems to be what you are debating for... /shrug

 

Anyways no hard feeling for sure..

 

I completely disagree with your opinion, but you are definitely entitled to it, and if you ahve enough people who believe like you then you will have a happy group of karate students..

 

For the most part, adn for the vast majority of the rest of martial artists, I think they will be well advised to not wear makeup to class, along with perfume and cologne and jewelry and dirty clothes, etc. etc. etc.

 

Just common sense... you have to work with other people... hands on... why would you not try to make sure you dont offend them?

 

btw... thanks for posting your views... while i disagree i think it at least gets people thinking, and unless someone is threatening or getting really ugly i think debate can be a good thing

[GrrrArg]

btw... thanks for posting your views... while i disagree i think it at least gets people thinking, and unless someone is threatening or getting really ugly i think debate can be a good thing

 

^ True.

 

So lets be careful this doesnt desend into the personel arguements its seems (IMO) to be heading towards.

[k4karate]

hello, i'm the one that started this thread and thought it was over weeks ago. i'm amused to see that it has still gone on and i had absolutly no idea.

 

i applaud your thoughts and comments.

 

i just have to say this...please don't take extreme offense..."LUCKYBOXER":

 

i have just read over your last few posts where you are trading arguments with ka**** i don't remember the spelling of her screen name.

 

you really need to cool down and accept that she has a different opinion from you and that her voice is just as valid as yours.

 

you seem to be picking apart her quotes in your posts so that some of the things she has written sound completely different from what was originally said. you also have a tone in your posts which signify that you are correct all the time and that she is definitely wrong, no comments about that. okay, "YOU" don't like the idea of make-up in the dojo. a forum is a place for disscussion, from all those who have an opinion. it's almost scary to think that a person who runs their own karate school cannot handle or accept the opinions of others and feels that they are right all the time.

 

i know that if your read this post that you will make some smug comment about me, maybe even pick apart my post to help paint the "ignorant" image you probably have of me now but you should know that you cannot govern everyone, this forum is not run like a communist government.

 

you don't have to prove that someone is 100% wrong. she had some valid points and yes, so did you. but you are in no way 100% right. ACCEPT it. your human.

[Luckykboxer]

Ok fair enough, Ill answer a few of your comments/questions...

 

first off I didnt change the intent of any of his(I dont think its a woman) comments, I specifically answered his comments one at a time there. His comments looked a bit ridiculous probably because they are /shrug

 

Just because peopel want something to be true doesnt mean it is, and no matter how they debate it, it wont make it any more right.

 

As far as ME not liking it, that is regardless of the point.

 

The point is i listed several reasons why it was bad to have it in the dojo, all having to do with training and studying martial arts.

 

All the reasons i saw why it should be allowed in the dojo had absolutely nothing to do with training and studying martial arts.

 

So you tell me who has the better arguement here? I never said women or men for that matter shouldnt wear makeup, I just said they shouldnt when training and i then stated why. I see absolutely no good reason to wear makeup to train in. Other then LAziness..... I.E. the comment about not wanting to spend the time removing it.

 

As far as making a smug comment about you, I have no need to do that, you did pretty good yourself trying to paint me as the villain and you as the victim, all the while doing the same thing you accuse me of doing and try to make me look bad. Ill let you ponder that.

 

I am glad this forum isnt run as a communist government, because then AFIBirds post count would be spread equally amongst the rest of us and we would have a forum of a bunch of greenbelts making posts hehe

 

humor there.... laugh... haha,....hoho.....hehe.... ok..

 

As far as me thinking I am right well, isnt that the meaning of an opinion, you feel you are right so you have an opinion, and if you believe you are right you debate your opinion to opposing views to see if it holds up?

 

I still would love to hear why makeup is beneficial in training, and why it is better then not wearing makeup.

 

I already posted long ago in this thread that if anyoen can show me how makeup helps you train better that i would wear it to train in.

 

I still have yet to see that answered though.

 

as far as accepting it?... Ill say when I see soemthing posted that proves my opinion invalid or wrong then ill accept it, until then ill be a staunch opposer of wearing makeup in the studio, just like i am with perfumes and colognes, and dirty clothes, and jewelry, etc.etc.

[TheDevilAside]

The argument is in the topic's title. Karate philosophy vs. Female vanity.

 

Get rid of your vanity, it's not a good character trait to have.

 

Just leave the makeup at home. I'm with Luckyboxer, I don't see how makeup is beneficial or necessary in training.

[47MartialMan]

All of my female students remove their make up before practice. Some are removing in the ladies room in the school. I dont tell them to remove it, they do. I guess they feel it may smudge or run doing a sweaty workout. I give them enough time to prepare.

 

Why not wear make up swimming, aerobics, skydiving, etc...

 

There is a "time and place" to wear make up.

 

In sweaty training is not the place...to much emphasis on "looks" than application