Northern Mantis

[Draven Chen Zhen]

Drunken Monkey

 

in the world today, in europe, if you don't have belt how will a school keep his students??

 

Every student wants to make progress. This is an easy way to let them show they are making it. And believe me before you'll get your first belt you have to do one hell of an exame.

 

2ndly, if you got 50 students some are training for 3years others for 6 months, you can't train them together, there is no way you can. Cause you can only preform some of the moves if you have a good basis knowledge.

 

So the belts are also used to split the group in an advanced course an a beginners course.

 

3thly blackmantis asked me with kicks we learn in Shaolin Kung Fu.. so I sumed some up I can preform or I've seen more advanced students do.

 

So to get to the point , my school isn't messy at all, it is actually very structured.

 

And about the belt system, here is a little bio of my sifu

Sifu Walter Toch is already more than 35 year active as a professional in de Eastern Martial Arts. He received his black belt in JIU-Jitu and his fourth Dan in the Karate-Do.

 

In the summer of 1987, he visited the famous Shaolin Temple, Song Shan, in Henan Province in China.

 

There he took lessons of the famous Shaolin monks, like Sifu Shi Yong of the 33rd generation and Shi de Dong of the 31st generation.

 

Sifu Walter Toch made a lot of trips to China and even invited the monks in Belgium.

 

He obtained as first Westerner a graduate of the famous Shaolin Temple in China.

 

He recently also got the "Golden Sun" from I.J.J.I.C.

 

So I would say I think he knows what he is doing, so who am I to judge wether we need or need not a belt system.

 

Greetzz ChenZy

[Drunken Monkey]

yip gee keung's mantis school does not use a belt system.

 

the majority of first gen yip man students do not/did not use a belt sytem.

 

the shaolin class taught by shi yan zi does not have a belt system.

 

i don't think the lau gar eagle claw uses a belt system.

 

i know the five elders fist class local to me don't.

 

those that i know of that do have coloured belts in their class is to differentiate those who can teach and those who are learning.

 

so to answer to your first question.

 

yes, many (very traditional) schools in the west keep many (often too many) students without a belt system.

 

in fact, i would say, most people would avoid a 'chinese' style school if it had a belt system as it totally destroys the family spirit of the traditional chinese martial way.

 

second question.

 

i'm not bothered about what you do or do not have to learn to get your first belt.

 

the point is, that's not how chinese martial arts is about.

 

there is no syllabus.

 

there is no, 'do this, do that, here's your belt'.

 

the point is everyone is good at different things so one system cannot be used for all.

 

i don't think a belt is the best way for a student to know he is making progress.

 

i think the best way for student to know when he is getting better is when the student get's hit less and he finds things easier to do.

 

and why can't you have everyone training together?

 

because not everyone can do the same things?

 

i say that isn't a valid reason.

 

as i have said, if anything, it violates the idea of the chinese martial family.

 

there is only one type of separation; teacher and student.

 

anything else only serves to create a sense of superiority and potential animosity.

 

you say there are 32 animal forms.

 

now i do not know what you mean by form.

 

but as i know it, a form is a training method that serves to unite your footwork, hand work, structure by way of linking techniques together to form a sequence.

 

the resulting sequence is a form.

 

you may call something else a form.

 

32 forms.

 

does getting your first belt involve being able to use everything of the 32 forms?

 

or just being able to perform it?

 

like i say, we might have different terms for things.

 

a side note.

 

having gone to train at the shaolin temple in china isn't that much of a biggie.

 

for $3000 US you can do the same.

 

should also point out that his choice of using a belt system probably stems from his japanese training.

 

i would just say that the nature of karate training and chinese style training are so fundementally different that to apply something like the belt system to the chinese style would , like i said before, destroy some of the principles of the chinese way.

 

i said it seemed messy to begin with is because from what i can tell, you aren't really being taught anything like shaolin style kung fu.

 

instead, you seem to be learning loose 'mini' sets of movements that have been given a name that seems to have no meaning.

 

the things you have mentioned briefly before here to not sound like any shaolin kung fu that i know of.

 

i mean, do you know what 'monkey steals peach' or 'angry dragon waves tail' or 'small lotus blossom' are?

 

you aren't even doing basic forms like cheung kuen or tan tui.

 

my use of the word 'messy' was because the style you seem to be taught looks a bit messy.

[sAtelitte]

Out of curiousity (don't want to be rude here) what's your experience with shaolin kung fu Drunken Monkey?

 

Our sifu's academy is very close with the shaolin community at henan, there's even a monument of "brotherhood" between the temple at henan and the belgium shaolin academy. There have been plenty of occasions where shaolin monks have visited our academy (stayed here for a couple of weeks and gave lessons and demonstrations, plenty of pictures of that on the site).

 

My point, if a belt system is so unnatural for shaolin kung fu then why did genuine shaolin monks (most of them sifu's) gave lessons in such a system here?

in fact, i would say, most people would avoid a 'chinese' style school if it had a belt system

 

I bet 80% of the people who join the academy don't know much about shaolin traditions (they're there to learn no?) and i doubt the remaining 20% wouldn't join just because of the belts.

 

I have to admit i've had my own questions with the 32 animal thingy, but thats only a small part of everything we see. Forms (Perhaps you know this as "tao"?) like shaolin Tombei boxing, Tsau hong Tsuan boxing, Yin Shu stick,... "Jibengong" excercise like zhen ti tui, cai ti tui, xu bo liang zhang, Qi long bo zhong quan,...

 

I trust the sifu 100%, i very much doubt we're being thaught an "messy" version of shaolin kung fu.

[Draven Chen Zhen]

sAtelitte, could not have said it better.

[Drunken Monkey]

my experience?

 

2 years learning said long fist, tan tui and ng ying kuen.

 

monument of "brotherhood"

 

there's a monument of william wallace in scotland (stirling i think).

 

except it's of mel gibson as william wallace.

 

if you want, i can erect a monument of brotherhod for you too...

 

you realy should find out a bit about exactly what the shaolin temple is these days.

 

it's not the place it used to be.

 

it isn't much more than a government sanctioned money making machine.

 

i have always said this; the best place to learn shaolin kung fu is probably not the shaolin temple in china.

 

every year, the monks come and perform at the seni exhibition in birmingham.

 

they are invited and paid.

 

the monuments and monks do not mean anything in respect to the school.

 

i can invite and pay for the leading wing chun guys to visit me, stay at my house and teach me.

 

wouldn't mean much....

[sAtelitte]

I suppose if i post other reasons in favor of my academy, you would put them aside as well

 

Anyway i was just wondering, you mentionend basic forms like cheung kuen or tan tui. i never heard of them although i know our basic kung fu kick are Zhen ti tui, Cai ti tui, Wai bai tui and Li guo tui so i assume tan tui has also something to do with kicks?

[Drunken Monkey]

i am not putting them aside.

 

i'm just pointing out that they are rather meaningless (like the ever popular taking pictures with renown sifus for no reason...).

 

as i pointed out, for the sum of $3000, you too can train at the shaolin temple.

 

food and accommodation is provided.

 

see, that's what's bothering me.

 

the things you mention do not sound like shaolin to me.

 

you are mentioning what sounds like single moves (that you seem to cal forms).

 

cheung kuen=long fist, a basic set taught in shoalin (also regarded as a style in itself but i am atlknig of the base form)

 

tan tui=spring legs, another basic set.

[sAtelitte]

the ones i mentioned (zhen ti tui, cai ti tui,...) are indeed single moves, not forms, perhaps i didn't phrase it so well in my previous post.

 

The forms we see are also called tao (translation = a fight against an imaginary opponent). The basic ones i know of are shaolin tombei boxing, Tsau hong Tsuan boxing. I know three others unfortunatly i'm having problems remembering the exact name ( mabye draven can help out here? ) Shaolin tombei boxing for example are about 20 single moves linked together which we have to preform fluently and with a good sence of timing.

 

Does this sound more like a form to you? I even had to ask my younger sister (who studies for english teacher) to help me out here so i really tried my best to explain it

[Drunken Monkey]

look, when i said that it looked messy, i wasn't infering that your school isn't legit or whatever, although i can see how this can be read in my words.

 

i was just trying to point out that it doesn't seem to follow how shaolin is usually taught (how i was taught)

 

base 'arts' (stretching, stances, punches, kicks+variations using stances...)

 

small forms (little sets of ten 'sup sik')

 

long forms (lohan kuen, tan tui, mui fa etc etc)

 

executions of loose techniques from forms.

 

it looked to me that you were being taught singular moves as opposed to the entire form.

 

this is what i meant by messy (i'm not a big fan of breaking up forms into chunks....)

 

as for the names of things.

 

there will be some confusion as you seem to be giving me names in mandarin and i know only know in the cantonese.

 

as for my comments on the shaolin temple and the monks who are currently there.

 

do a little search on the (modern)history of the temple.

 

it's not that great a place.

[Draven Chen Zhen]

Drunken Monkey now I understand a little bit more.

 

Maybe it is better if we post how a training looks like in our school.

 

First of all, we do +/- 10 min of stressing exercises. Then we do basic punches, in mabu, ...

 

After that we continue learning the form that we are studing (first one is Tombei Boxing, others are Tsau hong Tsuan Boxing,...).

 

If you don't practice our form we pratice some basic little "forms" like

 

* Ma bo zhong quan

 

* Ma bo bian gong bo zhong quan shang bo

 

* Po bo bian gong bo zhong quan shang bo

 

These are not parts of a bigger form. I mean we don't break forms into chunks.

 

.....

 

After that there are normaly some stick exercises. To finish again with stretching and sitting a couple of min in Mabu.

 

That generaly is the way a training works in our school.

 

Plz comment on that + how were you thaught Shaolin?

 

Greetzz ChenZy