What title does your instructor have?

[Quest33]

Yeah I knew I would provoke a couple of things there.. but I really don' care to. It is not my purpose here. I don't intend on cutting down boxing either.. Infact the whole post was rather rash.. so please disregard it. Instead let me say that martial carries no less respect than boxing.

[aefibird]

and despite all that i say, it still sounds like people misunderstand the context of the term of master in martial arts.

 

is it that difficult?

 

is it really that unbearable to call the guy who teaches you martial arts 'sifu/sensei' (i have never met anyone who asked to be called master....)

 

not everyone calls my sifu by the title but i do.

 

it is a choice i make because i have no ego about it.

 

fi would say that it is you with the ego problem if you personally do not want to call your teacher sifu/sensei.

 

whetehr or not he asks to be called by the title is almost another point entirely.

 

if you are going to him to learn then you have deemed him suitable to teach and hence worthy of the title.

 

Good post, as ever, Monkey.

 

I call my instructor 'Sensei' inside the dojo and occasionally outside too, especially if I am talking about him to someone else. To me it is a sign of respect, not a sign that he is some ego maniac on a power trip, or someone who lords it over all his cowering students.

 

My karate instructor doesn't insist on being called Sensei (except by the under-18s at the club, who can either call him Sensei or Mr Smith), but I address him as Sensei. To me, he has earned that title because of his dedication and experience in training. Even though he doesn't insist upon being called Sensei, I believe that he has earned the title, so I call him by it.

[cathal]

All of this discussion on biased judging is very interesting. What do your dojos do when it comes to combatting this issue?

 

At the last goodwill tournament I attended the judges were cycled each competition. If a student, son/daughter, or other relative, was competing in that particular event they would be swapped out for another judge. I'm sure that this allowed for a more objective judging experience since you were evaluated by a judge that didn't know you or was related.

[Mc. Steve]

Sa Bum nim until they do masters grading, when it's master so-and-so. Also as Sir/ma'am. Lau if I like, but I would never call Master Zamparelli by his first name. It's probably because my instructor is more of a friend than the master, so if it's a non MA social event, he'll be Lau.

 

Having said that, I know a Cho dan who I doubt I will ever call them Sa bum Nim. They are not an instructor, and thats what it means to me.

 

If I see a school teacher walking down the street then I will call them Sir/Miss. If I am good friends with them I may call them by their first name, but in a learning environment they are still Sir/Miss.

 

Oops, there I go again, I should stop talking.

[Gumbi]

The best way I can explain this is through what Matt Thorton said:

 

Q: Don't you think the use of terms like Sifu and Sensei in traditional martial arts teach humility to the students, and show proper respect?

 

A:Not at all.... in fact I think they can eventually lead to the opposite. The most obnoxious, ego maniacal people I have ever met have been traditional martial arts "masters".... often cocky.... overweight.... scared inside, but very very haughty on the outside. The posses the quintessential beggars humility.

 

Q:Whats the beggars humility?

 

A:Its a simple idea.... that their are two different types of humility.... a beggars humility, and a fighters humility. I beggar will bow down and scrape the floor for any man he deems superior to himself. But, at the same time, he will demand that anyone he deems as inferior.... bow down and scrape the floor for him. The fighter bows down to no man, and allows no man to bow down to him. You have to remember that most Asian cultures are cast societies. Its common for them to refer to each other according to social status when born. I am an American..... and I personally don't buy into that socio-economic idea.

 

Q:What about the respect afforded an Instructor

 

A:What about it. I have never experienced a problem with respect. You see people here will respect the Instructors because the Instructors will get out into the class and wrestle or spar with any and everybody at the Gym. I will wrestle with anybody that walks into the Gym. Its not about winning.... or being a tough guy, or anything like that... no.... its about not being afraid to train for real in front of, or with your students... or as I would prefer to say.... fellow athletes. Thats very different from a sifu..... a sifu has a position to defend.... "I am a Sifu, and as such I must remain aloof from my students, and I must not spar with them.... as I must preserve this illusion if Sifudom that I posses" (laughs).... you see, its all a big ego trip. And of course eventually that "sifu" becomes very insecure.... because he knows in his heart, since he has not been training and sparring, that some of his own students can probably work him over now.... which of course makes him even

 

more insecure.... its all a vicious cycle. Usually the sifu becomes a bitter angry guy.... all because he was to scared to let go of his position and just be an athlete........ and besides that, you know what, I train every day with Olympic level wrestlers, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, and boxers... I'd feel silly having anyone call me a sifu (laughs).

[DLopez]

Its a simple idea.... that their are two different types of humility.... a beggars humility, and a fighters humility. I beggar will bow down and scrape the floor for any man he deems superior to himself. But, at the same time, he will demand that anyone he deems as inferior.... bow down and scrape the floor for him. The fighter bows down to no man, and allows no man to bow down to him. You have to remember that most Asian cultures are cast societies. Its common for them to refer to each other according to social status when born. I am an American..... and I personally don't buy into that socio-economic idea.

 

I don't know who this Matt Thornton is, but he is woefully ignorant of Asian culture, especially with regard to bowing.

 

Does he ever shake another "American's" hand? If not, then he sounds like a real jerk, but at least he'd be consistent. If he does, then why won't he bow to someone of Asian culture?

 

You see, what's this guy clearly doesn't understand is that in Asian culture, the bow is synonymous with the western handshake.

 

I wouldn't be using this guy for any more examples to follow, as he sorely needs a clue or two.

 

As for instructors that want to be addressed by their title being haughty, well, not my instructor. Anyone else have a haughty instructor? If anyone sounds haughty, it's this Matt Thornton dude.

 

Sorry if I come across harsh, but something about ignorance being bandied about with such bravado like that just irks me.

[italian_guy]

In my kung fu school the main instructor is the head of a small world wide school organization called WCKA.

 

I think he is something like 7 chieh (seven degree Black Belt). He studied northern shaolin, tai chi chuan and Ba qua with a Chinese Grand Master (former head of the organization now deceased) who was 10th chieh.

 

I call him Maestro (little less formal then master but about the same).

 

In my karate school the main intructor is 4th dan

 

and I call him by the name.

[markusan]

All the instructors in my organisation are addressed by our first names and I encourage my students to challenge my teaching. I feel informality in communication creates a better flow, and keeps me on my toes. Also I feel I learn a lot from my students so maybe I should call them sensei?

[Drunken Monkey]

for reasons of your own, you have decided that in a martial arts school, the guy at the top insists on being called sifu becuase of ego.

 

you then follow with statements that group all martial arts that use any form of title, and say catagorically that ALL of the sifus and senseis and whatever are actually incompetent people and hide behind the title.

 

you view is very short-sighted, very narrow minded and in no way reflects reality.

 

your quotemeantions caste societies but it fails to see that in a sifu/toa-dai everyone who is learning is equal.

 

you can have beggears and doctors and students and government officials all calling each other brother.

 

the sifu could be of a lower caste than some of the students.

 

the idea is that the quan is a place where anyone can go to.

 

it is a little bubble where conventional social problems are not an issue.

 

a little sidenote.

 

some of the most obnoxious, ego maniacal people I have ever met have been americans.

 

does that mean that all americans are like that?

 

also, you are basing your view on someone else's words?

 

how many people have you met and talked to?

 

how many of those have been martial arts instructors?

 

have you been to every single martial arts school and talked to every guy who teaches and then made a note about how he is addressed and how he acts etc etc?

 

as someone else has said, the thnigs you have posted just show how ignorant some people are.

 

"a sifu has a position to defend.... "I am a Sifu, and as such I must remain aloof from my students, and I must not spar with them"

 

that particular one bugs me.

 

perhaps its an american theng (like i said before)

 

but i have never met an instructor who was unwilling to cross hands with me.

 

"you see, its all a big ego trip. And of course eventually that "sifu" becomes very insecure.... because he knows in his heart, since he has not been training and sparring, that some of his own students can probably work him over now.... which of course makes him even

 

more insecure.... its all a vicious cycle. Usually the sifu becomes a bitter angry guy"

 

that is called conjecture.

 

the whole point of view is based on the notion that sifus don't train/spar with their students and hence are not able to beat their students.

 

i can argue that the guys who don't use a title are the ones who are protecting themselves because if they lose, well, then they won't feel so ashamed.

 

anyway,

 

i'm going to be mean now and ask that you answer with your own words.

 

answer with your own experiences.

 

using other people's words like that is not that different from matt thornton's idea of the sifu.

 

you don't have much of an argument.

 

you use someone else's words to protect yourself.

 

if those words are proved wrong then well, they aren't your words....

[Mart]

i think this is a void argument.

 

Different systems have different ways.

 

This is due to how the system developed.

 

Its a bit like saying what your favourite color, yellow, then saying its dumb cos your favourite colour is green.

 

by the way, yellow is the best colour.